1 00:00:13,459 --> 00:00:03,379 dreama also Talia caras skeptics on 2 00:00:16,129 --> 00:00:13,469 podcast Nicodemus welcome to the skeptic 3 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:16,139 zone the podcast from Australia for 4 00:00:44,140 --> 00:00:35,880 yes it's the skeptics are episode number 5 00:00:47,700 --> 00:00:44,150 149 for the 27th of foremost 2011 widget 6 00:00:50,500 --> 00:00:47,710 sauce is coming to you from circularity 7 00:00:54,130 --> 00:00:50,510 so can I get you here and see me down on 8 00:00:56,649 --> 00:00:54,140 Sydney Harbour right off the city very 9 00:00:59,140 --> 00:00:56,659 popular tourist spot and it's where many 10 00:01:00,729 --> 00:00:59,150 people take ferry boats to get around 11 00:01:03,369 --> 00:01:00,739 the harbor which I will be doing very 12 00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:03,379 soon and that lovely singing you can 13 00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:05,170 hear in the background is a busker 14 00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:09,090 dressed up like somebody from 15 00:01:15,370 --> 00:01:12,570 who here at Second World War 1940s she's 16 00:01:18,139 --> 00:01:15,380 got a fury costume on the hair 17 00:01:20,779 --> 00:01:18,149 old-fashioned microphone she's a very 18 00:01:22,370 --> 00:01:20,789 good stick for a busker I think it's 19 00:01:24,559 --> 00:01:22,380 such a nice day here in Sydney I thought 20 00:01:27,889 --> 00:01:24,569 I'd come down work on the show on my 21 00:01:30,889 --> 00:01:27,899 little netbook and have an enjoyable 22 00:01:33,649 --> 00:01:30,899 ride harbor well what's coming up on 23 00:01:35,899 --> 00:01:33,659 this week's show we have part two of 24 00:01:41,300 --> 00:01:35,909 doctor reaches interview with Benjamin 25 00:01:43,639 --> 00:01:41,310 Radford investigator the paranormal 26 00:01:46,219 --> 00:01:43,649 investigator investigator of strange and 27 00:01:47,929 --> 00:01:46,229 mysterious things in part to Ben 28 00:01:50,870 --> 00:01:47,939 continues he's talked about the 29 00:01:53,510 --> 00:01:50,880 chupacabra and his investigations into 30 00:01:56,809 --> 00:01:53,520 that mysterious monster and also his 31 00:01:59,270 --> 00:01:56,819 investigations into plagiarism that's 32 00:02:01,999 --> 00:01:59,280 coming up at the start of the show and 33 00:02:05,779 --> 00:02:02,009 following that we have a little side 34 00:02:08,180 --> 00:02:05,789 trip I did last weekend I went to see a 35 00:02:11,990 --> 00:02:08,190 show called fact or fiction put on my 36 00:02:14,900 --> 00:02:12,000 end stove now in Stowe is the it's the 37 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:14,910 only research reactor in Australia and 38 00:02:19,309 --> 00:02:17,010 it's a suburb called Lucas Heights and 39 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:19,319 they've started a really interesting 40 00:02:23,900 --> 00:02:22,170 outreach program to well educate the 41 00:02:26,140 --> 00:02:23,910 general public about exactly what goes 42 00:02:30,490 --> 00:02:26,150 on at the reactor 43 00:02:32,500 --> 00:02:30,500 and I attended their show and spoke to a 44 00:02:35,770 --> 00:02:32,510 lot of the scientists who were there on 45 00:02:38,350 --> 00:02:35,780 hand it was a fantastic time and I hope 46 00:02:41,429 --> 00:02:38,360 you'll get a lot out of the interviews 47 00:02:44,199 --> 00:02:41,439 coming up towards the end of the show 48 00:02:46,869 --> 00:02:44,209 well I'm down here near wolf number 49 00:02:51,190 --> 00:02:46,879 three wolf number three and that's going 50 00:02:53,740 --> 00:02:51,200 to be my fairy ferry boat to the seaside 51 00:02:59,069 --> 00:02:53,750 suburb of manly here in city an 52 00:03:03,819 --> 00:03:01,210 she's going up again with their world 53 00:03:06,879 --> 00:03:03,829 war two songs so why I queue up for my 54 00:03:23,820 --> 00:03:06,889 fairy I'll let you enjoy the skeptic 55 00:03:33,670 --> 00:03:27,190 now it's time for dr. Rachel reports 56 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:33,680 with dr. Rachel Dunlop yeah I mean 57 00:03:38,770 --> 00:03:37,130 basically I I did I'm convinced that I 58 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:38,780 solved the mystery and I don't say that 59 00:03:43,210 --> 00:03:40,970 lightly you know I've been doing these 60 00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:43,220 sorts investigations for 12 years now 61 00:03:51,670 --> 00:03:48,290 and there I I'm well aware that you know 62 00:03:54,430 --> 00:03:51,680 in science you know the the whatever the 63 00:03:55,660 --> 00:03:54,440 state of the evidence is is is is the 64 00:03:57,759 --> 00:03:55,670 currency of evidence and if there's no 65 00:03:59,440 --> 00:03:57,769 evidence coming up then then all you 66 00:04:02,920 --> 00:03:59,450 know all conclusions are risible and 67 00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:02,930 that's fine so I'm I'm I'm probably more 68 00:04:07,150 --> 00:04:04,850 cautious than most people about claiming 69 00:04:10,240 --> 00:04:07,160 to have solved a big mystery but in this 70 00:04:12,340 --> 00:04:10,250 case I really have and and I believe 71 00:04:15,220 --> 00:04:12,350 I've had and you know it's the results 72 00:04:16,750 --> 00:04:15,230 of tough you know five years research if 73 00:04:19,509 --> 00:04:16,760 there's anything I've missed I mean I 74 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:19,519 welcome criticism and if there's if 75 00:04:24,310 --> 00:04:21,890 anybody reads the book or thinks that I 76 00:04:27,159 --> 00:04:24,320 missed something unhappy to look at I 77 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:27,169 mean I sincerely am but I don't know 78 00:04:31,090 --> 00:04:28,970 there's no there's no questions 79 00:04:32,710 --> 00:04:31,100 remaining that I all the different 80 00:04:34,570 --> 00:04:32,720 pieces of the puzzle are finally put 81 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:34,580 together and parted reason I was able to 82 00:04:39,340 --> 00:04:37,370 do that is that is that the the 83 00:04:42,310 --> 00:04:39,350 chupacabra again it's only 15 years old 84 00:04:44,020 --> 00:04:42,320 and so there was a finite data set for 85 00:04:45,370 --> 00:04:44,030 me to work from there's only so many 86 00:04:46,830 --> 00:04:45,380 reports there's only so many books 87 00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:46,840 there's only so many references to it 88 00:04:52,900 --> 00:04:50,450 and so you know I don't think I could 89 00:04:55,840 --> 00:04:52,910 ever say definitively that I solved 90 00:04:57,760 --> 00:04:55,850 Bigfoot just because it's so massive 91 00:04:59,290 --> 00:04:57,770 there are so many reports there's so 92 00:05:02,529 --> 00:04:59,300 many hoaxes it's been so contaminated 93 00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:02,539 with just you know just tracks and just 94 00:05:07,480 --> 00:05:04,250 just eyewitness reports and then 95 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:07,490 disputed you know films and it's too 96 00:05:12,909 --> 00:05:10,970 massive at least for me to to really say 97 00:05:14,469 --> 00:05:12,919 that I had you know but that I pull a 98 00:05:15,820 --> 00:05:14,479 lot together into one poem that really 99 00:05:17,650 --> 00:05:15,830 dependably solves it because there's 100 00:05:20,050 --> 00:05:17,660 there's so many loose ends same thing 101 00:05:22,390 --> 00:05:20,060 with the Loch Ness monster in the case 102 00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:22,400 of chupacabra I think it was it was a 103 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:24,530 big enough mystery for me to tackle and 104 00:05:30,030 --> 00:05:25,090 that I 105 00:05:31,710 --> 00:05:30,040 but it would get small enough and it was 106 00:05:33,300 --> 00:05:31,720 it was you know they were there were few 107 00:05:34,740 --> 00:05:33,310 enough reports and sightings that I was 108 00:05:37,950 --> 00:05:34,750 able to sort of get my mind around it 109 00:05:39,990 --> 00:05:37,960 and piece it all together so I me and 110 00:05:41,820 --> 00:05:40,000 unlike salable of this monster and 111 00:05:45,840 --> 00:05:41,830 Bigfoot you had carcasses as well 112 00:05:47,610 --> 00:05:45,850 exactly the neo chicken chupacabra 113 00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:47,620 exhibit on it that's a very good point 114 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:49,690 exactly right I mean that's that and 115 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:51,250 that's a big part of it was that was 116 00:05:54,840 --> 00:05:52,810 that you know that once you have the 117 00:05:56,670 --> 00:05:54,850 carcasses the sort of science takes the 118 00:05:58,710 --> 00:05:56,680 science and forensic sort of takes care 119 00:06:02,129 --> 00:05:58,720 of itself and you still have to sort of 120 00:06:03,510 --> 00:06:02,139 put it in context mo Browns but and 121 00:06:05,460 --> 00:06:03,520 actually that's why you know a good 122 00:06:07,170 --> 00:06:05,470 third of the book is devoted to the the 123 00:06:09,390 --> 00:06:07,180 the cultural aspects and the folklore 124 00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:09,400 aspects because again ultimately the 125 00:06:13,530 --> 00:06:12,250 chupacabras vampire so I have I have a 126 00:06:15,450 --> 00:06:13,540 couple sections in the book talking 127 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:15,460 about the history of vampires and you 128 00:06:19,170 --> 00:06:17,650 look at European vampires and Latin 129 00:06:23,279 --> 00:06:19,180 American vampires and even African 130 00:06:24,570 --> 00:06:23,289 vampires and when you again we look at 131 00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:24,580 in the broader social and cultural 132 00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:28,050 context chupacabra fits very nicely into 133 00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:32,050 into what you would expect a 21st 134 00:06:37,350 --> 00:06:35,650 century or 20th century you know Puerto 135 00:06:40,409 --> 00:06:37,360 Rican vampire would look like I mean 136 00:06:42,480 --> 00:06:40,419 it's it's it's it fits perfectly right 137 00:06:44,430 --> 00:06:42,490 there and so it's it was neat to sort of 138 00:06:46,170 --> 00:06:44,440 be able to sort of again look at it from 139 00:06:48,450 --> 00:06:46,180 a from a folklore point of view from our 140 00:06:51,060 --> 00:06:48,460 forensics point of view my witness point 141 00:06:53,850 --> 00:06:51,070 of view and then you know being able to 142 00:06:55,650 --> 00:06:53,860 actually finally track down the the 143 00:06:57,210 --> 00:06:55,660 origins of chupacabra because that was 144 00:06:59,969 --> 00:06:57,220 the main part of the mystery other 145 00:07:02,879 --> 00:06:59,979 people had talked about aspects of you 146 00:07:04,379 --> 00:07:02,889 know the chip covers being coyotes for 147 00:07:07,080 --> 00:07:04,389 example in the chupacabras and this and 148 00:07:09,210 --> 00:07:07,090 that but nobody had really addressed the 149 00:07:12,420 --> 00:07:09,220 the central key issue with which is 150 00:07:14,070 --> 00:07:12,430 where did it come from where because it 151 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:14,080 came out of this lab year 152 00:07:17,309 --> 00:07:15,610 the cheaper for in the middle of the 153 00:07:19,140 --> 00:07:17,319 jump well there's actually there's 154 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:19,150 actually two different origin theories 155 00:07:24,209 --> 00:07:20,970 which is interesting one of them is that 156 00:07:25,770 --> 00:07:24,219 if you talk to most Puerto Ricans and 157 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:25,780 other people who will believe the 158 00:07:32,100 --> 00:07:27,930 chupacabra and there are many who do 159 00:07:35,309 --> 00:07:32,110 they they say that it's either an alien 160 00:07:37,409 --> 00:07:35,319 an extraterrestrial entity that you know 161 00:07:39,749 --> 00:07:37,419 it was visiting UFO and got out and 162 00:07:43,050 --> 00:07:39,759 escaped or something and then got away 163 00:07:45,689 --> 00:07:43,060 in aliens pet is one of the theories the 164 00:07:47,790 --> 00:07:45,699 other theory is that um that it's the 165 00:07:49,830 --> 00:07:47,800 result of genetic experiments like top 166 00:07:51,839 --> 00:07:49,840 secret sort of frankenstein like 167 00:07:55,309 --> 00:07:51,849 genetics experience and experiments in 168 00:07:57,360 --> 00:07:55,319 the Puerto Rican jungle and of course 169 00:07:59,339 --> 00:07:57,370 you know the reason they have to come up 170 00:08:01,499 --> 00:07:59,349 with these explanations these farfetch 171 00:08:04,980 --> 00:08:01,509 exhibitions because it only appeared in 172 00:08:06,240 --> 00:08:04,990 95 well you can I mean why would 173 00:08:08,610 --> 00:08:06,250 something suddenly appear well either 174 00:08:10,709 --> 00:08:08,620 because an alien dropped it here or it's 175 00:08:12,749 --> 00:08:10,719 a newly created created animal I mean 176 00:08:16,679 --> 00:08:12,759 yeah ultimately this is the only two 177 00:08:19,559 --> 00:08:16,689 things you can reach for and so and so 178 00:08:22,950 --> 00:08:19,569 as it turned out you know when I was 179 00:08:24,510 --> 00:08:22,960 able to track down the origin of the 180 00:08:27,659 --> 00:08:24,520 monster and exactly where it came from 181 00:08:29,369 --> 00:08:27,669 and what they eyewitness saw it fits in 182 00:08:31,619 --> 00:08:29,379 perfectly I mean it all it all comes 183 00:08:35,790 --> 00:08:31,629 together and I don't think we can lay my 184 00:08:39,649 --> 00:08:35,800 list is really hanging on been known to 185 00:08:43,889 --> 00:08:39,659 do with HR giger it does it does um the 186 00:08:46,199 --> 00:08:43,899 artist who did the sculptures and the ya 187 00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:46,209 when it was a fanboy yeah what happened 188 00:08:52,110 --> 00:08:49,810 was that um was that I had you know I 189 00:08:54,930 --> 00:08:52,120 had seen the original chupacabra and of 190 00:08:58,079 --> 00:08:54,940 course I interviewed mrs. tolentino who 191 00:09:00,810 --> 00:08:58,089 saw this thing and who's upon his who's 192 00:09:02,579 --> 00:09:00,820 sketch sort of went worldwide and other 193 00:09:06,199 --> 00:09:02,589 people other people sort of when they 194 00:09:09,430 --> 00:09:06,209 when later people went when people in 195 00:09:11,530 --> 00:09:09,440 1995-96 Puerto Rico 196 00:09:13,750 --> 00:09:11,540 talked about seeing the chupacabra they 197 00:09:15,250 --> 00:09:13,760 refer to her sketch as a template it 198 00:09:17,430 --> 00:09:15,260 wasn't like I saw some new creatures 199 00:09:19,660 --> 00:09:17,440 like that thing that she saw I saw that 200 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:19,670 with a couple of details here and there 201 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:21,770 so it was very very much a very 202 00:09:26,590 --> 00:09:23,810 influential template from which other 203 00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:26,600 people jus throwing Chupacabra sightings 204 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:29,330 of data that had stained hands right yes 205 00:09:32,830 --> 00:09:31,370 absolutely it's important yeah 206 00:09:34,990 --> 00:09:32,840 absolutely in fact it was published in 207 00:09:37,180 --> 00:09:35,000 the front page of the local newspaper it 208 00:09:39,430 --> 00:09:37,190 was everywhere I mean the tabloids and 209 00:09:41,950 --> 00:09:39,440 again getting back to the the social 210 00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:41,960 media aspect the tabloids were 211 00:09:47,020 --> 00:09:44,450 sensational and they were they were in 212 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:47,030 Puerto Rico and sure like you know it's 213 00:09:50,860 --> 00:09:49,010 were like oh I guess I ran in Elvis 214 00:09:52,750 --> 00:09:50,870 sightings because suddenly we have this 215 00:09:55,090 --> 00:09:52,760 new monster and they love it I mean this 216 00:09:57,340 --> 00:09:55,100 was rumor gossip you know tabloid 217 00:09:59,380 --> 00:09:57,350 sensationalism blood cells newspaper oh 218 00:10:00,940 --> 00:09:59,390 my god absolutely and so and so yeah 219 00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:00,950 they her her image went everywhere 220 00:10:06,580 --> 00:10:04,490 including on internet because again as I 221 00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:06,590 mentioned the the original chupacabra 222 00:10:11,020 --> 00:10:08,090 citing even though it had no actual 223 00:10:13,990 --> 00:10:11,030 connection to UFOs it was co-opted by 224 00:10:15,820 --> 00:10:14,000 the UFO community in Puerto Rico and 225 00:10:17,890 --> 00:10:15,830 they sort of put their own UFO spin on 226 00:10:21,070 --> 00:10:17,900 it and then that would help make it go 227 00:10:23,170 --> 00:10:21,080 worldwide and so you know so so in 228 00:10:26,020 --> 00:10:23,180 trying to sort of address the final 229 00:10:28,570 --> 00:10:26,030 kernel of the mystery you where where 230 00:10:30,250 --> 00:10:28,580 the hell did she see this thing and so I 231 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:30,260 looked around I trying to figure out 232 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:32,210 what you know what what might she have 233 00:10:35,590 --> 00:10:33,410 possibly seen that has these 234 00:10:38,020 --> 00:10:35,600 characteristics and I and you know what 235 00:10:39,820 --> 00:10:38,030 was new added in the island specifically 236 00:10:42,310 --> 00:10:39,830 in Puerto Rico at that time we're not 237 00:10:45,730 --> 00:10:42,320 talking you know 1892 France we're not 238 00:10:49,780 --> 00:10:45,740 talking you know 1978 Texas or you know 239 00:10:52,930 --> 00:10:49,790 1985 Auckland we're talking August 95 240 00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:52,940 Puerto Rico what new came to the island 241 00:10:58,120 --> 00:10:55,610 either physically culturally socially in 242 00:11:01,060 --> 00:10:58,130 some way that they might have resembled 243 00:11:04,110 --> 00:11:01,070 at and the answer is that there was a 244 00:11:06,579 --> 00:11:04,120 film that came out called species oh 245 00:11:07,970 --> 00:11:06,589 that came out in 95 and it was actually 246 00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:07,980 released 247 00:11:15,500 --> 00:11:10,890 in july in the united states including 248 00:11:19,610 --> 00:11:15,510 puerto rico and as it turns out the the 249 00:11:20,570 --> 00:11:19,620 creature and species is if you look at 250 00:11:22,100 --> 00:11:20,580 it in there's actually two different 251 00:11:25,550 --> 00:11:22,110 forms in one form it's a rather 252 00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:25,560 attractive blonde Canadian supermodel of 253 00:11:30,890 --> 00:11:28,410 course of course in the other form it is 254 00:11:33,370 --> 00:11:30,900 a non attractive Canadian supermodel in 255 00:11:37,220 --> 00:11:33,380 the form of a creature that almost 256 00:11:40,100 --> 00:11:37,230 identically resembles the chupacabra it 257 00:11:42,410 --> 00:11:40,110 is by little derivative she turn 258 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:42,420 absolutely it is bipedal it has the 259 00:11:47,750 --> 00:11:44,250 spiked going down the back has a large 260 00:11:48,980 --> 00:11:47,760 wraparound eyes it's not completely 261 00:11:50,570 --> 00:11:48,990 identical I mean there there are a 262 00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:50,580 couple minor differences but I talked 263 00:11:53,750 --> 00:11:51,930 about in the book I mean you just I 264 00:11:56,030 --> 00:11:53,760 think I identified about a dozen 265 00:11:58,010 --> 00:11:56,040 different different characteristics that 266 00:12:02,420 --> 00:11:58,020 are identical in both I mean that you 267 00:12:03,560 --> 00:12:02,430 can look at it right there and so I was 268 00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:03,570 like what the hell is this I mean this 269 00:12:07,910 --> 00:12:05,850 is there's this chupacabras known around 270 00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:07,920 the world as a famous monster blood 271 00:12:13,580 --> 00:12:09,930 sucking vampire monster and then there's 272 00:12:16,280 --> 00:12:13,590 this this monster in this movie that 273 00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:16,290 they seem to look a lot of life like 274 00:12:20,510 --> 00:12:18,930 well this is odd I talked to tolentino 275 00:12:22,880 --> 00:12:20,520 and she said yeah she'd seen the movie 276 00:12:25,340 --> 00:12:22,890 like how she'd also seen the movie yes 277 00:12:28,700 --> 00:12:25,350 you've seen the move before August 95 278 00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:28,710 yes and in fact um it gets even more 279 00:12:35,290 --> 00:12:31,050 interesting because i had um I actually 280 00:12:38,060 --> 00:12:35,300 dug up an interview with her in 1996 and 281 00:12:40,340 --> 00:12:38,070 she says she saw the movie species in 282 00:12:45,410 --> 00:12:40,350 fact she knows she say that she says 283 00:12:46,820 --> 00:12:45,420 that the the similarity between the the 284 00:12:50,079 --> 00:12:46,830 monster and the movie species and the 285 00:12:51,970 --> 00:12:50,089 chupacabra the she saw was remarkable 286 00:12:54,549 --> 00:12:51,980 I'm thinking well she just gave it away 287 00:12:56,499 --> 00:12:54,559 an antimatter 6ins easy she did 288 00:12:58,929 --> 00:12:56,509 everybody picked I know but nobody 289 00:13:00,129 --> 00:12:58,939 noticed it until and it was remarkable 290 00:13:02,650 --> 00:13:00,139 because like when I went back him like 291 00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:02,660 oh my god she says it right she says it 292 00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:04,490 right there yeah and because and 293 00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:06,170 actually that was important because 294 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:08,930 later on at one point some a 295 00:13:13,329 --> 00:13:10,610 cryptozoologist sort of accused me 296 00:13:14,980 --> 00:13:13,339 leading the witness well you know I they 297 00:13:17,619 --> 00:13:14,990 said well you know I think you know your 298 00:13:19,540 --> 00:13:17,629 theory is kind of interesting but you 299 00:13:20,949 --> 00:13:19,550 know I how do we know that you saw ahead 300 00:13:22,239 --> 00:13:20,959 time you couldn't couldn't it be that 301 00:13:23,470 --> 00:13:22,249 you just saw this thing you're like hey 302 00:13:26,499 --> 00:13:23,480 couldn't it look like that I said well 303 00:13:31,299 --> 00:13:26,509 she said it except you're assuming that 304 00:13:33,069 --> 00:13:31,309 I sort of went back in time to 96 and I 305 00:13:37,299 --> 00:13:33,079 took the guise of someone who I don't 306 00:13:39,460 --> 00:13:37,309 know a total UFO interviewer who asked 307 00:13:41,019 --> 00:13:39,470 her about that it's like no this is this 308 00:13:43,090 --> 00:13:41,029 is all right there you have a lot of 309 00:13:45,309 --> 00:13:43,100 powers but not that yeah I'm not that 310 00:13:47,530 --> 00:13:45,319 good and and it gets even more 311 00:13:49,119 --> 00:13:47,540 interesting because the parallels just 312 00:13:51,090 --> 00:13:49,129 grow and grow and grow the more the more 313 00:13:54,489 --> 00:13:51,100 you look at it including the fact that 314 00:13:56,049 --> 00:13:54,499 as I mentioned the main two theories 315 00:13:58,059 --> 00:13:56,059 about where the chupacabra came from 316 00:13:59,860 --> 00:13:58,069 ours that it's an extraterrestrial or 317 00:14:02,980 --> 00:13:59,870 that it's the result of top secret US 318 00:14:05,590 --> 00:14:02,990 government genetic experiments as it 319 00:14:08,079 --> 00:14:05,600 happens then went to monster in the 320 00:14:11,350 --> 00:14:08,089 movie species is both an 321 00:14:13,629 --> 00:14:11,360 extraterrestrial alien and results of us 322 00:14:16,660 --> 00:14:13,639 top secret government hex experiments no 323 00:14:19,419 --> 00:14:16,670 I way yeah the origin stories are 324 00:14:21,160 --> 00:14:19,429 identical now I see why you are happy to 325 00:14:23,499 --> 00:14:21,170 your comfortable to claim that you've 326 00:14:26,650 --> 00:14:23,509 solved this mystery yes and I mean it's 327 00:14:28,239 --> 00:14:26,660 all if it all lines up and it's like oh 328 00:14:30,009 --> 00:14:28,249 my god I mean that the origin stories 329 00:14:32,019 --> 00:14:30,019 are the same the characteristics are the 330 00:14:34,239 --> 00:14:32,029 same that there they identical they look 331 00:14:37,629 --> 00:14:34,249 identical the the witness who originally 332 00:14:39,730 --> 00:14:37,639 saw it says herself that they look very 333 00:14:42,460 --> 00:14:39,740 first not complete signal at markley 334 00:14:45,730 --> 00:14:42,470 similar and on top of that the creme de 335 00:14:47,169 --> 00:14:45,740 la creme for me the the genetic wha tour 336 00:14:51,309 --> 00:14:47,179 de force Minaj at all what have you call 337 00:14:54,100 --> 00:14:51,319 it that that was that the the very first 338 00:14:57,330 --> 00:14:54,110 scene in the film species is set in 339 00:14:59,580 --> 00:14:57,340 Puerto Rico it is not if the RFU making 340 00:15:01,680 --> 00:14:59,590 so at the Arecibo radio deserve ettore 341 00:15:04,380 --> 00:15:01,690 the very first scene is set into Puerto 342 00:15:06,210 --> 00:15:04,390 Rico and it was set in the film is set 343 00:15:09,150 --> 00:15:06,220 at that time it was set in the present 344 00:15:12,060 --> 00:15:09,160 day of 95 right so people in Puerto Rico 345 00:15:14,370 --> 00:15:12,070 including mrs. tolentino to them I'm not 346 00:15:18,060 --> 00:15:14,380 gonna say was documentary but it was it 347 00:15:19,770 --> 00:15:18,070 was very very likely they're like what 348 00:15:22,470 --> 00:15:19,780 the hell there's this sort of thing that 349 00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:22,480 happens to be if you haven't rapist 350 00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:25,570 exactly even there exactly and so and so 351 00:15:31,380 --> 00:15:28,530 so we know with with this discovery 352 00:15:33,300 --> 00:15:31,390 ultimately if you know if you're going 353 00:15:35,930 --> 00:15:33,310 to dismiss that either and then the only 354 00:15:40,220 --> 00:15:35,940 possible argument you can make is that 355 00:15:42,570 --> 00:15:40,230 it is complete coincidence it is just an 356 00:15:45,150 --> 00:15:42,580 astronomically bizarre complete 357 00:15:48,930 --> 00:15:45,160 coincidence that the the animal that she 358 00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:48,940 saw later called chupacabra happens to 359 00:15:54,710 --> 00:15:51,490 look exactly like the creature that she 360 00:15:59,910 --> 00:15:54,720 saw any film a week or two earlier oh 361 00:16:03,330 --> 00:15:59,920 now you know what it could be I'm not 362 00:16:05,100 --> 00:16:03,340 buying it and I think even even many of 363 00:16:06,390 --> 00:16:05,110 the people who believe in chupacabra if 364 00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:06,400 they read the book and they look at all 365 00:16:09,180 --> 00:16:07,810 their arguments that are laid out in the 366 00:16:12,030 --> 00:16:09,190 course there's much more to it in the 367 00:16:15,330 --> 00:16:12,040 book it's all there it's all there and 368 00:16:18,030 --> 00:16:15,340 and so yeah it's uh it's a remarkable 369 00:16:20,100 --> 00:16:18,040 ride it's a you know again this has been 370 00:16:22,620 --> 00:16:20,110 the longest running investigation of my 371 00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:22,630 career just but it sounds like it was 372 00:16:27,900 --> 00:16:25,570 really satisfying to I mean I guess not 373 00:16:30,510 --> 00:16:27,910 all your investigations tie up so neatly 374 00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:30,520 like this one yeah it most of them don't 375 00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:33,610 I mean I in my case I I I end up solving 376 00:16:36,489 --> 00:16:35,170 of course many of the mysteries that I 377 00:16:37,629 --> 00:16:36,499 tackle and I 378 00:16:39,519 --> 00:16:37,639 you know have those in some of my other 379 00:16:42,009 --> 00:16:39,529 books lake monster mysteries for example 380 00:16:44,589 --> 00:16:42,019 or scientific investigation but 381 00:16:48,159 --> 00:16:44,599 certainly the chupacabra is especially 382 00:16:49,149 --> 00:16:48,169 satisfying for me because is to the best 383 00:16:51,069 --> 00:16:49,159 of my knowledge one of the 384 00:16:55,479 --> 00:16:51,079 highest-profile solve mysteries in 385 00:16:57,519 --> 00:16:55,489 decades I mean I'm not I'm not I'm not 386 00:16:58,929 --> 00:16:57,529 I'm not bragging that I don't I honestly 387 00:17:01,269 --> 00:16:58,939 don't know of any other mysteries that 388 00:17:03,249 --> 00:17:01,279 are known around the world of such a 389 00:17:05,259 --> 00:17:03,259 high-profile maybe like the Bermuda 390 00:17:07,889 --> 00:17:05,269 Triangle the stuffed Larry khush did 391 00:17:11,169 --> 00:17:07,899 investigating that but ultimately I 392 00:17:13,689 --> 00:17:11,179 don't know of any other mysteries you 393 00:17:17,110 --> 00:17:13,699 know unexplained phenomena that are so 394 00:17:19,590 --> 00:17:17,120 well known in certain last couple 395 00:17:21,999 --> 00:17:19,600 decades that have been so conclusively 396 00:17:25,929 --> 00:17:22,009 debunked so how much height well have 397 00:17:28,389 --> 00:17:25,939 you had so far been a little bit um it's 398 00:17:33,009 --> 00:17:28,399 it's it's fascinating you know the the 399 00:17:34,330 --> 00:17:33,019 believers um the believers they don't 400 00:17:35,919 --> 00:17:34,340 read the book first of all I mean they 401 00:17:38,860 --> 00:17:35,929 the people who absolutely convinced the 402 00:17:41,649 --> 00:17:38,870 chupacabra zist but nothing I say here 403 00:17:43,570 --> 00:17:41,659 right none of my logical scientific 404 00:17:46,060 --> 00:17:43,580 explanations are going to going to 405 00:17:48,340 --> 00:17:46,070 dissuade them from the from their belief 406 00:17:50,230 --> 00:17:48,350 and so I really wrote the book for the 407 00:17:51,340 --> 00:17:50,240 open minded people people who are saying 408 00:17:53,980 --> 00:17:51,350 you know what there might be something 409 00:17:56,950 --> 00:17:53,990 there or or even really just the journey 410 00:17:58,659 --> 00:17:56,960 to me is interesting and you know if you 411 00:18:00,639 --> 00:17:58,669 want you can certainly turn to the last 412 00:18:02,139 --> 00:18:00,649 page of the book and and figure out 413 00:18:04,359 --> 00:18:02,149 whether i think the chupacabra exists or 414 00:18:06,549 --> 00:18:04,369 not that that's all that's all well and 415 00:18:10,350 --> 00:18:06,559 good but I think that I think to my mind 416 00:18:12,549 --> 00:18:10,360 the value in it is is in in 417 00:18:14,259 --> 00:18:12,559 demonstrating how a mystery like this 418 00:18:16,570 --> 00:18:14,269 can be tackled and actually can be 419 00:18:18,100 --> 00:18:16,580 solved in fact in the last section of 420 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:18,110 the book I talked about that you know 421 00:18:23,409 --> 00:18:20,210 what's what's the point writing a book 422 00:18:24,759 --> 00:18:23,419 that you know the skeptics about 423 00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:24,769 something the skeptics never believed 424 00:18:28,060 --> 00:18:26,570 existed in the first place and the 425 00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:28,070 believers aren't going to read it anyway 426 00:18:32,519 --> 00:18:31,610 and the answer is that at least when I 427 00:18:34,690 --> 00:18:32,529 talk about in the book is that 428 00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:34,700 ultimately my research isn't about the 429 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:36,530 chupacabra 430 00:18:43,530 --> 00:18:38,810 because it almost certainly doesn't 431 00:18:46,930 --> 00:18:43,540 exist my research is about how how 432 00:18:50,110 --> 00:18:46,940 something that someone saw in a film can 433 00:18:53,350 --> 00:18:50,120 be taken literally and believed as a 434 00:18:56,140 --> 00:18:53,360 real actual breathing blood sucking 435 00:18:58,390 --> 00:18:56,150 creature by you know tens of thousand 436 00:19:00,850 --> 00:18:58,400 people around the world due to folklore 437 00:19:02,430 --> 00:19:00,860 due to misunderstandings due to poor 438 00:19:04,930 --> 00:19:02,440 critical thinking due to the mass media 439 00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:04,940 to me that's the real story here the 440 00:19:09,490 --> 00:19:06,410 real story isn't about this this little 441 00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:09,500 you know blood sucking vampire thing you 442 00:19:14,110 --> 00:19:11,930 have routes it's about it's about the 443 00:19:16,510 --> 00:19:14,120 the the social and cultural factors and 444 00:19:18,310 --> 00:19:16,520 the personal beliefs that led people to 445 00:19:21,180 --> 00:19:18,320 think it was and I think that in that 446 00:19:23,860 --> 00:19:21,190 context it actually has a much broader 447 00:19:27,670 --> 00:19:23,870 application and I think that you know a 448 00:19:29,770 --> 00:19:27,680 lot of the lessons and discussions that 449 00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:29,780 I have in there apply just as well to 450 00:19:33,910 --> 00:19:31,970 other other so-called paranormal 451 00:19:35,860 --> 00:19:33,920 mysteries in terms of you know examining 452 00:19:38,230 --> 00:19:35,870 the evidence is this for you is this not 453 00:19:39,670 --> 00:19:38,240 true who do we talk to about this you 454 00:19:41,320 --> 00:19:39,680 know how do we break this down analyze 455 00:19:42,940 --> 00:19:41,330 it I think you made a good point before 456 00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:42,950 though when you were comparing this 457 00:19:47,620 --> 00:19:45,050 particular mystery to say you mentioned 458 00:19:49,420 --> 00:19:47,630 Bigfoot because as you say Bigfoot is 459 00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:49,430 polluted with a whole lot of stuff isn't 460 00:19:53,950 --> 00:19:51,410 it with you with fakes and you know the 461 00:19:56,020 --> 00:19:53,960 fake corpse of racing times worse yes 462 00:19:59,950 --> 00:19:56,030 this this did seems to be quite clean 463 00:20:03,190 --> 00:19:59,960 and um yeah not so noisy there wasn't 464 00:20:06,310 --> 00:20:03,200 too much noise yeah this is fairly new 465 00:20:10,330 --> 00:20:06,320 there's a lot less hoaxing um has anyone 466 00:20:12,220 --> 00:20:10,340 heist this is for cover no one is hopes 467 00:20:15,630 --> 00:20:12,230 to chupacabra there's been some almost 468 00:20:19,360 --> 00:20:15,640 certainly hoaxed tracks they put 469 00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:19,370 chupacabra tracks what you find is that 470 00:20:24,430 --> 00:20:22,610 is that in the end there's I'm sure 471 00:20:25,690 --> 00:20:24,440 there's some hoax reports as well like 472 00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:25,700 eyewitness sightings but if you're 473 00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:28,250 looking at that the chupacabra like the 474 00:20:31,810 --> 00:20:30,530 dead the dead dogs and coyotes no one's 475 00:20:32,700 --> 00:20:31,820 hooking though they're just they're just 476 00:20:33,810 --> 00:20:32,710 animals 477 00:20:35,700 --> 00:20:33,820 there's things they don't they don't 478 00:20:38,130 --> 00:20:35,710 understand they don't recognize yeah so 479 00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:38,140 that's really that's what they're 480 00:20:42,779 --> 00:20:39,970 looking at the the more interesting 481 00:20:45,750 --> 00:20:42,789 thing to me is is the conspiracy element 482 00:20:47,940 --> 00:20:45,760 to it because the chupacabra unlike 483 00:20:50,279 --> 00:20:47,950 Bigfoot and unlike nasan basically 484 00:20:53,220 --> 00:20:50,289 unlike any other monster has a very 485 00:20:55,860 --> 00:20:53,230 strong conspiracy theory element running 486 00:20:58,500 --> 00:20:55,870 through it everything from the switch 487 00:21:02,909 --> 00:20:58,510 carcasses that I mentioned in 19 in year 488 00:21:05,519 --> 00:21:02,919 two thousand in Managua Nicaragua the 489 00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:05,529 the conspiracy theories you know for 490 00:21:09,149 --> 00:21:07,570 example involving the UFOs I mean if 491 00:21:10,500 --> 00:21:09,159 it's a if it's UFOs then it's 492 00:21:12,750 --> 00:21:10,510 governments hiding that if it's a 493 00:21:15,360 --> 00:21:12,760 genetic experiment then of course the 494 00:21:17,789 --> 00:21:15,370 government hiding that and there was 495 00:21:20,549 --> 00:21:17,799 even rumors for example in Chile in 496 00:21:22,139 --> 00:21:20,559 South America that the chupacabra was 497 00:21:25,529 --> 00:21:22,149 the result of a collaboration between 498 00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:25,539 NASA and the Chilean government to 499 00:21:32,220 --> 00:21:28,450 create animals that could survive on 500 00:21:34,019 --> 00:21:32,230 Mars this is a conspiracy and yeah and 501 00:21:35,460 --> 00:21:34,029 tejas cuzzo and it was just fascinating 502 00:21:38,159 --> 00:21:35,470 to me i kid i kept digging up these 503 00:21:40,110 --> 00:21:38,169 references to two conspiracies in and 504 00:21:41,669 --> 00:21:40,120 again this isn't this is something 505 00:21:44,730 --> 00:21:41,679 that's completely novel to my knowledge 506 00:21:46,350 --> 00:21:44,740 in cryptozoology so it's a it's a faster 507 00:21:48,870 --> 00:21:46,360 the true becomes a fascinating blend of 508 00:21:51,630 --> 00:21:48,880 you know of folklore and forensics and 509 00:21:54,299 --> 00:21:51,640 you apology and conspiracy theory sort 510 00:21:55,950 --> 00:21:54,309 of like wrapped up into this cuz I don't 511 00:21:58,230 --> 00:21:55,960 I don't know that is that conspiracy 512 00:22:00,570 --> 00:21:58,240 surrounding necio before no not really 513 00:22:02,070 --> 00:22:00,580 right I didn't think I mean every now 514 00:22:03,990 --> 00:22:02,080 and then you'll find some some crackpot 515 00:22:08,159 --> 00:22:04,000 who believes that there's Bigfoot on ice 516 00:22:10,789 --> 00:22:08,169 and you know area 51 but effectively no 517 00:22:14,100 --> 00:22:10,799 I mean there there really isn't you know 518 00:22:16,380 --> 00:22:14,110 yeah there really aren't really anybody 519 00:22:17,460 --> 00:22:16,390 who's taken to who's credible to saying 520 00:22:18,690 --> 00:22:17,470 you know I think that you know the 521 00:22:20,519 --> 00:22:18,700 government knows more about Bigfoot and 522 00:22:22,950 --> 00:22:20,529 they're saying it's just partly because 523 00:22:25,350 --> 00:22:22,960 you know Rancher see the damn thing yeah 524 00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:25,360 from there from their backyards and 525 00:22:29,460 --> 00:22:27,610 whatever uh so it's kind of hard to say 526 00:22:32,010 --> 00:22:29,470 that the government is keeping it from 527 00:22:34,860 --> 00:22:32,020 us well it's right there if it's there 528 00:22:36,210 --> 00:22:34,870 but just before we finish up there was 529 00:22:38,130 --> 00:22:36,220 one thing I wanted to touch on bed and 530 00:22:39,450 --> 00:22:38,140 that was when you were doing the 531 00:22:42,830 --> 00:22:39,460 research for this you came across some 532 00:22:44,940 --> 00:22:42,840 interesting plagiarism I did I did which 533 00:22:47,700 --> 00:22:44,950 okay I guess it's kind of a nice example 534 00:22:49,430 --> 00:22:47,710 of how you go about the process of doing 535 00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:49,440 your research and you are very thorough 536 00:22:54,750 --> 00:22:52,570 so tell us about that sure yeah it was 537 00:22:57,539 --> 00:22:54,760 interesting I just after I had submitted 538 00:22:59,730 --> 00:22:57,549 the book to the publisher and it was it 539 00:23:03,840 --> 00:22:59,740 was acting the process of coming out I 540 00:23:05,250 --> 00:23:03,850 picked up a copy of a book I'll tell the 541 00:23:08,430 --> 00:23:05,260 title it's called the encyclopedia 542 00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:08,440 vampires by Teresa Chung CH รจ un gene 543 00:23:14,549 --> 00:23:12,730 and I picked it up at a bookstore and um 544 00:23:16,649 --> 00:23:14,559 because I'm injured in vampires and 545 00:23:19,799 --> 00:23:16,659 monsters I mean it's you know that's my 546 00:23:23,039 --> 00:23:19,809 thing so I drop you know Blair was 15 20 547 00:23:26,430 --> 00:23:23,049 books in the book and I read it and I 548 00:23:28,470 --> 00:23:26,440 was curious to see what what it said 549 00:23:30,230 --> 00:23:28,480 about the chupacabra because you know I 550 00:23:33,120 --> 00:23:30,240 have to know something like chupacabra 551 00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:33,130 just a little bit and so I flipped to it 552 00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:34,570 sure enough it had an entry in it so 553 00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:35,770 Michael this is interesting so I'm 554 00:23:41,340 --> 00:23:39,490 reading through it and much of it was 555 00:23:44,430 --> 00:23:41,350 wrong some of it was right you know it's 556 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:44,440 sort of the standard mix but was odd was 557 00:23:50,190 --> 00:23:46,450 that I came across a reference to a guy 558 00:23:51,899 --> 00:23:50,200 who had the so the book claimed had been 559 00:23:53,310 --> 00:23:51,909 researching the chupacabra in and 560 00:23:55,769 --> 00:23:53,320 actually looking for it in the jungles 561 00:23:58,830 --> 00:23:55,779 of South America for apparently a long 562 00:24:01,330 --> 00:23:58,840 time now this check out to me is off for 563 00:24:02,980 --> 00:24:01,340 a couple reasons number one 564 00:24:04,690 --> 00:24:02,990 there's not that many reports in South 565 00:24:06,250 --> 00:24:04,700 America like in terms of the carcasses I 566 00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:06,260 mean there's I mean there are reports of 567 00:24:09,580 --> 00:24:07,970 America but I don't think that there's 568 00:24:11,290 --> 00:24:09,590 nothing anybody would early be spending 569 00:24:13,060 --> 00:24:11,300 months and months in the jungles of 570 00:24:15,010 --> 00:24:13,070 Brazil earning I was looking for the 571 00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:15,020 damn thing and second of all I hadn't 572 00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:17,570 heard of this guy and you know I mean 573 00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:19,490 I'm not perfect i mean i'm sure i've 574 00:24:23,410 --> 00:24:21,050 missed facts and I don't you know i'm 575 00:24:24,730 --> 00:24:23,420 not you know I so it's possible that i 576 00:24:26,620 --> 00:24:24,740 just had just not come across this 577 00:24:28,450 --> 00:24:26,630 person's name before so i was curious 578 00:24:29,770 --> 00:24:28,460 like how did I miss this guy's name he's 579 00:24:33,460 --> 00:24:29,780 apparently important to become 580 00:24:34,750 --> 00:24:33,470 researcher so I am I went on the 581 00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:34,760 internet and I did a google search for 582 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:37,610 this guy's name and in a strange thing 583 00:24:41,890 --> 00:24:39,290 happened which is that what came up was 584 00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:41,900 an identical passage as to what was in 585 00:24:45,580 --> 00:24:43,850 the book and i still had i still know 586 00:24:47,110 --> 00:24:45,590 who the guy is it could be a fictional 587 00:24:48,550 --> 00:24:47,120 why don't you know that is but it was 588 00:24:50,350 --> 00:24:48,560 curious because like well that's weird 589 00:24:52,540 --> 00:24:50,360 that that's exactly the same phrasing is 590 00:24:57,750 --> 00:24:52,550 in the book and i realized that the 591 00:25:00,130 --> 00:24:57,760 soccer plagiarized that that section and 592 00:25:03,430 --> 00:25:00,140 so I started looking more closely at it 593 00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:03,440 and and because i have a pretty decent 594 00:25:08,050 --> 00:25:05,570 library of monster egypt cover stuff in 595 00:25:10,510 --> 00:25:08,060 my house i was able to get load 596 00:25:13,270 --> 00:25:10,520 references right away as it turned out I 597 00:25:15,340 --> 00:25:13,280 think about eighty percent of the entry 598 00:25:17,410 --> 00:25:15,350 was directly plagiarized from the 599 00:25:19,390 --> 00:25:17,420 internet what the author different 600 00:25:22,390 --> 00:25:19,400 websites are from different websites and 601 00:25:24,070 --> 00:25:22,400 also from also from various books but 602 00:25:25,870 --> 00:25:24,080 oftentimes it was when someone had 603 00:25:29,410 --> 00:25:25,880 quoted the book from the internet right 604 00:25:31,510 --> 00:25:29,420 so so actually it was I'm just like Oh 605 00:25:34,180 --> 00:25:31,520 My gods i'm reading this stuff and and 606 00:25:37,510 --> 00:25:34,190 so what end up doing is I i photocopied 607 00:25:39,580 --> 00:25:37,520 the entry on chupacabra and I took four 608 00:25:42,820 --> 00:25:39,590 or five different colors of highlighter 609 00:25:44,230 --> 00:25:42,830 and I highlighted each one and I had 610 00:25:45,700 --> 00:25:44,240 each reference so that could you know 611 00:25:46,990 --> 00:25:45,710 pink as this reference green as 612 00:25:49,120 --> 00:25:47,000 reference loses reverence yellows 613 00:25:51,610 --> 00:25:49,130 reverence and at the end of the day 614 00:25:54,190 --> 00:25:51,620 again as I recall that eighty percent of 615 00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:54,200 it was directly plagiarized from other 616 00:25:57,670 --> 00:25:55,730 sources every now and then she throwin 617 00:26:00,580 --> 00:25:57,680 like a name but for the most part it was 618 00:26:02,020 --> 00:26:00,590 just cutting and pasting so I'm like 619 00:26:03,370 --> 00:26:02,030 well and it just pissed me off for a 620 00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:03,380 couple reasons number one is that you 621 00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:05,210 know I pride myself on good scholarship 622 00:26:09,270 --> 00:26:07,970 that's what I do and second of all if 623 00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:09,280 you're going to plagiarize somebody 624 00:26:13,410 --> 00:26:11,330 plagiarize me 625 00:26:16,860 --> 00:26:13,420 at least I know what I'm talking about 626 00:26:20,820 --> 00:26:16,870 it's like it was I was offended that 627 00:26:23,410 --> 00:26:20,830 symptom 8 no not only is it wrong it's 628 00:26:25,090 --> 00:26:23,420 plagiarizing rod for Christ's sakes I 629 00:26:27,580 --> 00:26:25,100 mean I surprising me yeah I mean if you 630 00:26:29,230 --> 00:26:27,590 can at least if she plagiarized me than 631 00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:29,240 the in frame should be right because 632 00:26:33,250 --> 00:26:31,010 this is all about you it's all about me 633 00:26:35,590 --> 00:26:33,260 absolutely yeah and so anyway so I'm 634 00:26:39,370 --> 00:26:35,600 looking at this and then you need long 635 00:26:44,470 --> 00:26:39,380 story short so I that this was probably 636 00:26:47,230 --> 00:26:44,480 not the only reference this is probably 637 00:26:49,660 --> 00:26:47,240 not the only reference to to the 638 00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:49,670 chupacabra that was this front on the 639 00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:51,050 reference in the book it was plagiarized 640 00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:53,330 is played right because you know what 641 00:26:58,150 --> 00:26:55,330 you have to understand is that of course 642 00:27:01,420 --> 00:26:58,160 the the reason that I was able to go 643 00:27:03,190 --> 00:27:01,430 through and be the recognizer stuff is 644 00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:03,200 because I know the material but the 645 00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:04,730 problem is the average person who buys 646 00:27:08,710 --> 00:27:06,410 that book they're not going to know any 647 00:27:09,850 --> 00:27:08,720 better they don't they can't just skim 648 00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:09,860 through that know what's right what's 649 00:27:12,130 --> 00:27:10,970 wrong because they don't have the 650 00:27:13,180 --> 00:27:12,140 expertise and there's no reason they 651 00:27:15,550 --> 00:27:13,190 would it's probably why they buy the 652 00:27:17,260 --> 00:27:15,560 books I can learn right exactly exactly 653 00:27:18,940 --> 00:27:17,270 so that's when the problems it is that 654 00:27:20,290 --> 00:27:18,950 is that is that the average person 655 00:27:25,420 --> 00:27:20,300 doesn't have a clue what's what's good 656 00:27:28,390 --> 00:27:25,430 information was bad and so um so you 657 00:27:30,670 --> 00:27:28,400 know anyway so then I actually I did 658 00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:30,680 some research based on the premise that 659 00:27:35,350 --> 00:27:32,450 I probably hadn't stumbled across the 660 00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:35,360 one injury that was plagiarized it's 661 00:27:41,530 --> 00:27:39,530 possible but I'm skeptical so I did some 662 00:27:44,620 --> 00:27:41,540 research along with a colleague of mine 663 00:27:47,020 --> 00:27:44,630 Josh hunt helped me out and we spot 664 00:27:49,370 --> 00:27:47,030 checked the rest of the encyclopedia and 665 00:27:52,820 --> 00:27:49,380 a funny thing happened 666 00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:52,830 wow I wonder what it was well I won't 667 00:27:58,160 --> 00:27:56,610 keep you in suspense well over half of 668 00:27:59,630 --> 00:27:58,170 the entries that we spot check were had 669 00:28:01,430 --> 00:27:59,640 been directly plagiarized from the 670 00:28:05,270 --> 00:28:01,440 internet in fact I thing was closer to 671 00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:05,280 two thirds and basically with the the 672 00:28:09,530 --> 00:28:07,290 the the technique we did we just sort of 673 00:28:12,170 --> 00:28:09,540 randomly chose entries and we would 674 00:28:13,700 --> 00:28:12,180 select a phrase that seem like you seem 675 00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:13,710 to unique like a name plus a couple 676 00:28:17,950 --> 00:28:15,210 words on either side of it would just 677 00:28:20,360 --> 00:28:17,960 didn't enter them into google search and 678 00:28:22,690 --> 00:28:20,370 sometimes the the information was so 679 00:28:24,830 --> 00:28:22,700 generic that nobody would ever I mean 680 00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:24,840 it's so generic did it there's no way it 681 00:28:29,360 --> 00:28:26,490 would match up a lot of times however it 682 00:28:31,790 --> 00:28:29,370 did and so same way is it turns out 683 00:28:32,930 --> 00:28:31,800 again two-thirds of the book the sample 684 00:28:34,310 --> 00:28:32,940 that we I'm not saying the entire book 685 00:28:36,380 --> 00:28:34,320 the samples that we looked at two thirds 686 00:28:38,690 --> 00:28:36,390 of them were directly plagiarize and so 687 00:28:42,230 --> 00:28:38,700 I this was published through 688 00:28:45,620 --> 00:28:42,240 HarperCollins a fairly reputable yes pr2 689 00:28:47,510 --> 00:28:45,630 for fairly reputable a company is 690 00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:47,520 actually HarperCollins UK wasn't wasn't 691 00:28:50,870 --> 00:28:49,050 HarperCollins us which actually turned 692 00:28:53,060 --> 00:28:50,880 out to be an important distinction I 693 00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:53,070 contacted HarperCollins and I just 694 00:28:58,600 --> 00:28:55,290 politely inquired about what their 695 00:29:01,090 --> 00:28:58,610 policy isn't a tourism mm-hmm 696 00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:01,100 and I got a back a sort of cautious 697 00:29:09,070 --> 00:29:05,450 terse response bike well why do you want 698 00:29:11,830 --> 00:29:09,080 to know it's part along those lines and 699 00:29:13,630 --> 00:29:11,840 I said well I'm just I on this my name 700 00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:13,640 I'm a researcher and I believe it 701 00:29:18,039 --> 00:29:15,290 encounters plagiarism and we're looking 702 00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:18,049 into this and so I sort of got this back 703 00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:20,330 sort of you know generic well we 704 00:29:24,690 --> 00:29:22,250 encourage all our authors to the best 705 00:29:26,830 --> 00:29:24,700 standards hola so I said okay fine so I 706 00:29:29,110 --> 00:29:26,840 hadn't finished the kitten to believe me 707 00:29:31,299 --> 00:29:29,120 my research at that point and so I got 708 00:29:32,830 --> 00:29:31,309 back to them about um guess it was 709 00:29:34,630 --> 00:29:32,840 couple weeks later and when Josh and I 710 00:29:36,070 --> 00:29:34,640 had done more I was you could always 711 00:29:38,350 --> 00:29:36,080 keep doing more and more but it's at 712 00:29:40,930 --> 00:29:38,360 some point just cut it off and so I sent 713 00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:40,940 the this representative I believe it was 714 00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:44,450 a 10 page email uh in page even 10 page 715 00:29:51,370 --> 00:29:47,690 email um and also because I implied or 716 00:29:54,100 --> 00:29:51,380 as you well know the three pages of it 717 00:29:57,760 --> 00:29:54,110 was was was my discussion the remaining 718 00:30:00,789 --> 00:29:57,770 seven pages was was I was saying just so 719 00:30:05,470 --> 00:30:00,799 you know you know the entry on X pages 720 00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:05,480 the patron you know 38 235 / 30 39 this 721 00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:06,770 was directly played dress from this 722 00:30:10,150 --> 00:30:08,690 source here it is and I actually cut 723 00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:10,160 inpatient said you know this is what she 724 00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:12,290 said this is what's it worth this is 725 00:30:16,060 --> 00:30:14,090 what you said and I just laid it all out 726 00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:16,070 and said there's no mistaking this this 727 00:30:21,850 --> 00:30:19,090 is this is directly juris I mean there's 728 00:30:24,820 --> 00:30:21,860 show me how this is not even basically 729 00:30:27,220 --> 00:30:24,830 and let's look at some or close as I 730 00:30:28,900 --> 00:30:27,230 broke it down for them like we did I 731 00:30:32,289 --> 00:30:28,910 think it's I think we did five or six 732 00:30:34,539 --> 00:30:32,299 different entries and and so I said you 733 00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:34,549 know I'm what your wouldn't give any 734 00:30:43,330 --> 00:30:41,330 thoughts on this basically and and it 735 00:30:44,830 --> 00:30:43,340 was weird i waited for about a week or 736 00:30:47,740 --> 00:30:44,840 two and I finally got a response back 737 00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:47,750 something like well you know I know 738 00:30:50,740 --> 00:30:49,250 actually it know where your thoughts I 739 00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:50,750 had a couple other questions which is 740 00:30:54,490 --> 00:30:52,610 you know is it standard policy for your 741 00:30:55,990 --> 00:30:54,500 authors I mean do you do you expect your 742 00:30:58,600 --> 00:30:56,000 authors to do more than just cut and 743 00:31:01,020 --> 00:30:58,610 paste off google searches or that 744 00:31:02,980 --> 00:31:01,030 standard practice for harper collins but 745 00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:02,990 they didn't answer that question 746 00:31:08,850 --> 00:31:07,130 directly then another question was given 747 00:31:11,110 --> 00:31:08,860 the fact that so much of this has been 748 00:31:12,970 --> 00:31:11,120 plagiarized from other sources how can 749 00:31:15,370 --> 00:31:12,980 you verify that your non-fiction books 750 00:31:17,260 --> 00:31:15,380 are accurate because if you're a really 751 00:31:18,820 --> 00:31:17,270 good question yeah if you're if i buy a 752 00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:18,830 book and someone's name is on it I 753 00:31:22,870 --> 00:31:20,450 assume that the person whose name is on 754 00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:22,880 that book has researched it i mean you 755 00:31:26,049 --> 00:31:24,770 can quote other people but i have to 756 00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:26,059 assume that they didn't just take other 757 00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:27,490 people's words and ideas and thoughts 758 00:31:32,919 --> 00:31:30,170 and put them in as their own yeah and so 759 00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:32,929 if you're going to acknowledge and 760 00:31:35,770 --> 00:31:34,490 essentially they did acknowledge that 761 00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:35,780 there in fact had been played really 762 00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:37,010 mean there couldn't deny it it's right 763 00:31:41,530 --> 00:31:39,650 there but she's like well you know this 764 00:31:43,150 --> 00:31:41,540 was a massive undertaking and you know 765 00:31:47,530 --> 00:31:43,160 I'm sure there were mistakes that were 766 00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:47,540 made like well there's a difference 767 00:31:51,790 --> 00:31:50,330 between mistakes were made and most of 768 00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:51,800 your book was not written by your author 769 00:31:57,070 --> 00:31:55,130 yeah these are this is not just some 770 00:31:59,530 --> 00:31:57,080 things fell through the crack this is I 771 00:32:01,360 --> 00:31:59,540 would guess that most of your book with 772 00:32:05,740 --> 00:32:01,370 her name on it was not written by her 773 00:32:07,570 --> 00:32:05,750 yeah yeah um anyway I got back a it 774 00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:07,580 devolved into this sort of very terse 775 00:32:12,430 --> 00:32:10,730 annoyed you know if you have further 776 00:32:14,620 --> 00:32:12,440 questions contact our lawyers type stuff 777 00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:14,630 anyway so i'm going to write that up for 778 00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:16,130 skeptic inquire at some point soon but 779 00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:19,010 it was interesting just um just doesn't 780 00:32:23,970 --> 00:32:21,170 exercise because I I think that one of 781 00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:23,980 the reasons why there is so much 782 00:32:28,090 --> 00:32:26,090 mistaken information but about 783 00:32:30,730 --> 00:32:28,100 everything whether it's homeopathy or 784 00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:30,740 astrology or herbs all go route is that 785 00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:33,770 the lack of scholarship and and I really 786 00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:36,290 believe that editors are failing people 787 00:32:39,669 --> 00:32:37,970 in a lot of cases news editors book 788 00:32:41,860 --> 00:32:39,679 editors magazine article editor's 789 00:32:43,150 --> 00:32:41,870 because they're getting information and 790 00:32:45,700 --> 00:32:43,160 they're just pushing it back out there 791 00:32:48,340 --> 00:32:45,710 and you know I know for you know because 792 00:32:49,810 --> 00:32:48,350 i work on step inquire magazine if i get 793 00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:49,820 something and I question and I send it 794 00:32:52,900 --> 00:32:51,890 back to the author I query it if they 795 00:32:55,150 --> 00:32:52,910 don't address it he doesn't get 796 00:32:57,730 --> 00:32:55,160 published yeah I don't care if your PhD 797 00:32:59,320 --> 00:32:57,740 or not this is I'm a question about this 798 00:33:01,360 --> 00:32:59,330 if you can't justify this I'm going to 799 00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:01,370 take it out and if you have a problem 800 00:33:05,770 --> 00:33:03,050 that you can call me later but I'm not 801 00:33:07,780 --> 00:33:05,780 publishing this up and so you know so in 802 00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:07,790 my role in skeptical Inquirer magazine I 803 00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:10,130 take that very seriously 804 00:33:13,780 --> 00:33:12,530 and so because i want to know that that 805 00:33:15,670 --> 00:33:13,790 you know the information we're putting 806 00:33:18,550 --> 00:33:15,680 out there under our name written by 807 00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:18,560 these authors is right as factual is is 808 00:33:23,050 --> 00:33:21,890 logical and makes sense i'm not saying 809 00:33:24,700 --> 00:33:23,060 that I'm unique in that but that's 810 00:33:26,710 --> 00:33:24,710 certainly one thing that I try to do and 811 00:33:29,110 --> 00:33:26,720 I think the lot of times it's crystal 812 00:33:31,030 --> 00:33:29,120 clear that the editors they don't care 813 00:33:32,770 --> 00:33:31,040 they just put it out there yeah but 814 00:33:34,810 --> 00:33:32,780 they're not I mean as a as a writer I 815 00:33:36,370 --> 00:33:34,820 write a little bit too and as might I 816 00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:36,380 would never put out something like that 817 00:33:39,970 --> 00:33:38,090 either you know I'm trained as a 818 00:33:41,950 --> 00:33:39,980 scientist so I reference everything i'm 819 00:33:44,710 --> 00:33:41,960 doing i'm sorry particular about that 820 00:33:46,150 --> 00:33:44,720 but that's from my training I would 821 00:33:48,550 --> 00:33:46,160 never plagiarize something because as a 822 00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:48,560 writer that's not what I would do every 823 00:33:52,210 --> 00:33:50,570 what you and I think that's the 824 00:33:54,550 --> 00:33:52,220 intersection is that you are a scientist 825 00:33:57,000 --> 00:33:54,560 and and you know I come from both 826 00:33:59,560 --> 00:33:57,010 science and journalism background and so 827 00:34:01,540 --> 00:33:59,570 so the idea of putting in references and 828 00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:01,550 citations it's like that's the default 829 00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:05,210 yeah exactly that is what you do I mean 830 00:34:09,159 --> 00:34:07,730 Lester my problem is I send stuff dennis 831 00:34:10,510 --> 00:34:09,169 is they take out a lot of that because 832 00:34:12,700 --> 00:34:10,520 they're like no we don't want a 15 833 00:34:14,770 --> 00:34:12,710 references we want four right so I 834 00:34:17,020 --> 00:34:14,780 thought myself anything nice down right 835 00:34:19,030 --> 00:34:17,030 that's the default right and and and 836 00:34:20,860 --> 00:34:19,040 what what people have to understand is 837 00:34:23,050 --> 00:34:20,870 that is that when you're looking at new 838 00:34:24,340 --> 00:34:23,060 age authors and certainly an image if 839 00:34:26,470 --> 00:34:24,350 you're Luke books on crystals and 840 00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:26,480 healings and Reiki and astrology and 841 00:34:30,909 --> 00:34:29,690 psychics UFO the vast majority of it i 842 00:34:32,950 --> 00:34:30,919 would say probably ninety five percent 843 00:34:34,300 --> 00:34:32,960 or more of it number one they're not 844 00:34:38,110 --> 00:34:34,310 written by people who have a background 845 00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:38,120 in science or academia so the i mean if 846 00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:41,210 you put a gun to their head they may put 847 00:34:45,190 --> 00:34:43,850 in a couple references you know just to 848 00:34:47,500 --> 00:34:45,200 sort of try and make it look scholarly 849 00:34:50,590 --> 00:34:47,510 but but a lot of times they they don't 850 00:34:52,030 --> 00:34:50,600 even and honestly my guess is that with 851 00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:52,040 that particular authors and turns out 852 00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:53,570 he'd written i think about a half dozen 853 00:34:56,980 --> 00:34:55,610 other books for HarperCollins right and 854 00:34:57,970 --> 00:34:56,990 I said you know by the way you might 855 00:34:59,830 --> 00:34:57,980 want to look at these other books 856 00:35:01,540 --> 00:34:59,840 because I suspect I haven't I haven't 857 00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:01,550 followed through my threat yet but I 858 00:35:05,410 --> 00:35:04,010 suspect that if I if I asked to go 859 00:35:07,790 --> 00:35:05,420 people to help me out and look for other 860 00:35:11,180 --> 00:35:07,800 plagiarism in her other books 861 00:35:13,460 --> 00:35:11,190 I'm guessing my yeah yeah so but I but 862 00:35:17,300 --> 00:35:13,470 at my my guess is that is that this 863 00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:17,310 author genuinely believed that doing 864 00:35:21,650 --> 00:35:18,810 Google searches for a subject and 865 00:35:23,690 --> 00:35:21,660 cutting and pasting material sometimes 866 00:35:25,550 --> 00:35:23,700 with attribution sometimes not he's 867 00:35:27,230 --> 00:35:25,560 writing I mean I haven't met her I 868 00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:27,240 haven't spoken to her my guess is that 869 00:35:32,390 --> 00:35:29,010 that that's her understanding of what 870 00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:32,400 writing research is and for some reason 871 00:35:36,890 --> 00:35:34,770 her editors and sub F just didn't 872 00:35:38,090 --> 00:35:36,900 correct that misconception about the 873 00:35:40,070 --> 00:35:38,100 howlitt that's not only that but 874 00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:40,080 apparently they didn't recognize the 875 00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:43,290 wildly varying styles because I well I 876 00:35:46,940 --> 00:35:45,330 mean she's a bit of a worry oh yeah yeah 877 00:35:49,190 --> 00:35:46,950 and I brought that up so if you do you 878 00:35:51,890 --> 00:35:49,200 find it troubling that your editors some 879 00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:51,900 who are named in the book um didn't 880 00:35:55,790 --> 00:35:54,090 notice that that your author that's a 881 00:35:58,190 --> 00:35:55,800 really cool charlie yeah managed to 882 00:36:00,140 --> 00:35:58,200 write in a wide variety of styles um 883 00:36:01,460 --> 00:36:00,150 that's a really good point because if 884 00:36:03,620 --> 00:36:01,470 she's written more than one book you 885 00:36:05,510 --> 00:36:03,630 expect it would be similar time you 886 00:36:09,050 --> 00:36:05,520 would think so and yet somehow the 887 00:36:11,870 --> 00:36:09,060 editors at HarperCollins either didn't 888 00:36:13,340 --> 00:36:11,880 notice or didn't care anyway so again i 889 00:36:16,820 --> 00:36:13,350 have it i don't i don't say too much 890 00:36:19,550 --> 00:36:16,830 because i don't wanna get sued well you 891 00:36:21,140 --> 00:36:19,560 know truth is the defense the plagiarism 892 00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:21,150 is right there and if they want to sue 893 00:36:25,790 --> 00:36:23,970 me then sue me let i'll get up in court 894 00:36:27,950 --> 00:36:25,800 will go through this line by line and 895 00:36:29,510 --> 00:36:27,960 you probably find more anyway oh yeah i 896 00:36:31,220 --> 00:36:29,520 mean this is yeah which is why i think 897 00:36:32,990 --> 00:36:31,230 that they i think at some point they 898 00:36:34,910 --> 00:36:33,000 said you know we're just gonna we're 899 00:36:37,100 --> 00:36:34,920 just gonna we're gonna cut this off here 900 00:36:40,370 --> 00:36:37,110 we're digging ourselves in a hole here 901 00:36:43,700 --> 00:36:40,380 at ethic um and so yeah I mean I again I 902 00:36:45,770 --> 00:36:43,710 you know I and at the end of our email 903 00:36:47,450 --> 00:36:45,780 discussion because it was getting very 904 00:36:48,650 --> 00:36:47,460 terse because she's like yeah I don't 905 00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:48,660 believe I'm going to answer your 906 00:36:51,050 --> 00:36:49,650 questions any further I've already 907 00:36:53,330 --> 00:36:51,060 interviewed questions before I said in 908 00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:53,340 fact you haven't but I said I'm sorry 909 00:36:56,630 --> 00:36:55,410 this has been a difficult I don't mean 910 00:36:59,210 --> 00:36:56,640 to be difficult i'm not trying to be 911 00:37:02,390 --> 00:36:59,220 nasty of noxious you need to realize 912 00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:02,400 that that if this has been a trying time 913 00:37:06,050 --> 00:37:04,410 it's because you're author plagiarize 914 00:37:07,460 --> 00:37:06,060 yeah it's not because i'm being 915 00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:07,470 difficult because you're being an ass 916 00:37:12,350 --> 00:37:09,690 right right the problem isn't really the 917 00:37:14,300 --> 00:37:12,360 problem and your author chose to write a 918 00:37:15,559 --> 00:37:14,310 book by doing google searches and 919 00:37:16,999 --> 00:37:15,569 cutting and pasting 920 00:37:19,489 --> 00:37:17,009 that's where the problem lies let's be 921 00:37:22,430 --> 00:37:19,499 clear about that yeah well your book 922 00:37:26,509 --> 00:37:22,440 which has no plagiarism in it at all no 923 00:37:28,999 --> 00:37:26,519 and does have references and does it 924 00:37:32,209 --> 00:37:29,009 diversen references notes citations yeah 925 00:37:34,339 --> 00:37:32,219 and appendices I'm sorry it's called 926 00:37:36,529 --> 00:37:34,349 tracking the chupacabra the vampire 927 00:37:38,900 --> 00:37:36,539 based in fact fiction and phone call it 928 00:37:40,489 --> 00:37:38,910 isn't it's available now it is available 929 00:37:41,930 --> 00:37:40,499 it's available on Kindle is available 930 00:37:43,910 --> 00:37:41,940 through the University of New Mexico 931 00:37:45,589 --> 00:37:43,920 press which is a we can buy it in 932 00:37:47,029 --> 00:37:45,599 Australia you can buy in Australia you 933 00:37:51,140 --> 00:37:47,039 can buy it around the world you can get 934 00:37:54,259 --> 00:37:51,150 it on Amazon Kindle of course the 935 00:37:56,059 --> 00:37:54,269 hardcopy books I can sign in person but 936 00:37:57,979 --> 00:37:56,069 you know whatever I do I'm around yeah 937 00:37:59,779 --> 00:37:57,989 okay well then thanks once again for 938 00:38:02,209 --> 00:37:59,789 joining us on the skeptics I'm well 939 00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:02,219 thank you and um oh we can also give us 940 00:38:05,209 --> 00:38:03,690 your website to utilize yes i have i 941 00:38:07,309 --> 00:38:05,219 have a brand new website a spiffy new 942 00:38:08,930 --> 00:38:07,319 one it's called Benjamin Radford calm 943 00:38:11,959 --> 00:38:08,940 which in an America that's my full 944 00:38:13,609 --> 00:38:11,969 management B&J am and I'm sure I'm sure 945 00:38:15,439 --> 00:38:13,619 your list reverse Martin will put the 946 00:38:18,739 --> 00:38:15,449 links in there you go Benjamin overcame 947 00:38:20,359 --> 00:38:18,749 also read four books calm and yeah I've 948 00:38:22,370 --> 00:38:20,369 actually got another book coming out in 949 00:38:24,469 --> 00:38:22,380 a couple months with the sociologist 950 00:38:27,769 --> 00:38:24,479 actually who's Australia currently named 951 00:38:30,109 --> 00:38:27,779 Bob Bartholomew and I don't know the 952 00:38:32,689 --> 00:38:30,119 exact title i think it's the Martians 953 00:38:35,089 --> 00:38:32,699 have invaded a colorful history of the 954 00:38:36,709 --> 00:38:35,099 media panics and hoaxes oh wow that 955 00:38:38,299 --> 00:38:36,719 sounds it just yeah so we talk of 956 00:38:41,269 --> 00:38:38,309 everything from the world the world 957 00:38:43,130 --> 00:38:41,279 talks to the monkey man panic to phantom 958 00:38:45,380 --> 00:38:43,140 clowns I just got the chip cover a 959 00:38:48,410 --> 00:38:45,390 little bit so that will be coming out in 960 00:38:49,729 --> 00:38:48,420 a few months and then I've actually got 961 00:38:51,620 --> 00:38:49,739 a contract for another book for 962 00:38:55,370 --> 00:38:51,630 University of Mexico press on New Mexico 963 00:38:57,979 --> 00:38:55,380 mysteries the book is doing in March and 964 00:39:01,999 --> 00:38:57,989 I have not started yet that's 2012 ah 965 00:39:04,489 --> 00:39:02,009 yes oh yeah well no the book is due to 966 00:39:05,839 --> 00:39:04,499 them to that March it'll be I don't know 967 00:39:07,519 --> 00:39:05,849 when it'll be I'd probably be at about a 968 00:39:10,699 --> 00:39:07,529 year after that but I worry yet it is 969 00:39:12,739 --> 00:39:10,709 july do you haven't started again well 970 00:39:15,109 --> 00:39:12,749 I've got it about a third written I'm 971 00:39:16,609 --> 00:39:15,119 working on it I'm working on I I that 972 00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:16,619 guide to come out to go to appearance as 973 00:39:19,900 --> 00:39:17,930 a team 974 00:39:21,130 --> 00:39:19,910 well Ben thanks so much so much for 975 00:39:22,569 --> 00:39:21,140 taking the time to talk to us you'd 976 00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:22,579 better go and write your book now yes 977 00:39:33,259 --> 00:39:24,290 I'll get right on it thank you I was 978 00:39:40,079 --> 00:39:36,569 you're listening to the skeptic zone I'm 979 00:39:42,390 --> 00:39:40,089 Brian Dunning from sceptile calm when 980 00:39:45,299 --> 00:39:42,400 I'm not tuned into the skeptic zone I'm 981 00:39:47,130 --> 00:39:45,309 recording thus kept I'd podcast doing 982 00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:47,140 what I can to further knowledge by 983 00:39:51,450 --> 00:39:48,930 blasting away the widespread 984 00:39:54,299 --> 00:39:51,460 pseudo-sciences that infect popular 985 00:39:56,339 --> 00:39:54,309 culture I've also compiled a 40-minute 986 00:39:59,579 --> 00:39:56,349 educational video on critical thinking 987 00:40:03,299 --> 00:39:59,589 called here be dragons at here be 988 00:40:06,329 --> 00:40:03,309 dragons movie.com I hope you check those 989 00:40:21,479 --> 00:40:06,339 out and I hope you enjoy the skeptic 990 00:40:23,430 --> 00:40:21,489 zone well I've come here to the 991 00:40:27,229 --> 00:40:23,440 University of Technology here in Sydney 992 00:40:32,549 --> 00:40:27,239 UTS City campus where and stove are 993 00:40:34,469 --> 00:40:32,559 having a well a public day people can 994 00:40:37,319 --> 00:40:34,479 come and ask questions it's called fact 995 00:40:39,479 --> 00:40:37,329 or fiction which is a show goes for an 996 00:40:42,420 --> 00:40:39,489 hour and a half which I hope to to check 997 00:40:45,749 --> 00:40:42,430 out soon lots of people here finding out 998 00:40:48,420 --> 00:40:45,759 about what the what happens at the 999 00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:48,430 reactor at Lucas Heights environmental 1000 00:40:52,410 --> 00:40:49,690 research and all that sort of thing 1001 00:40:56,549 --> 00:40:52,420 Australia nuclear science and technology 1002 00:40:57,989 --> 00:40:56,559 organisation and stone and I'm really 1003 00:41:00,630 --> 00:40:57,999 pleased to see there's a great interest 1004 00:41:02,789 --> 00:41:00,640 here I'm milling around the audience and 1005 00:41:05,519 --> 00:41:02,799 they've even got somebody dressed up as 1006 00:41:07,049 --> 00:41:05,529 Darth Vader but all adds to part of the 1007 00:41:11,240 --> 00:41:07,059 fun this is all of course to do with 1008 00:41:14,630 --> 00:41:13,280 now we've got an interesting desk and 1009 00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:14,640 lots of members of the public lots of 1010 00:41:18,230 --> 00:41:16,050 kids lined up and they're wearing lab 1011 00:41:19,970 --> 00:41:18,240 coats I'm with Amelia hi Amelia hi hey 1012 00:41:21,710 --> 00:41:19,980 going I'm very well I'm having such a 1013 00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:21,720 good day today what is your position 1014 00:41:26,150 --> 00:41:24,450 with that end state I'm in the graduate 1015 00:41:27,830 --> 00:41:26,160 program i'm currently working a life 1016 00:41:31,310 --> 00:41:27,840 sciences division doing medical research 1017 00:41:33,950 --> 00:41:31,320 into radiation well yeah actually really 1018 00:41:36,380 --> 00:41:33,960 interesting stuff it is it's it's very 1019 00:41:38,060 --> 00:41:36,390 fascinating listen it's certainly a lot 1020 00:41:39,530 --> 00:41:38,070 to do and a lot we don't know and a lot 1021 00:41:40,790 --> 00:41:39,540 to find out about so it's all very 1022 00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:40,800 exciting right now I'm very interested 1023 00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:43,050 to know what what's going on at this 1024 00:41:47,330 --> 00:41:45,450 table is that a real Geiger counter that 1025 00:41:49,130 --> 00:41:47,340 is a real guy get killed that's what one 1026 00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:49,140 looks like just like in the movies yes 1027 00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:51,570 just like in the movies and you can hear 1028 00:41:55,340 --> 00:41:53,610 it's giving up a crackling sound and 1029 00:41:56,870 --> 00:41:55,350 telling us how much better radiations 1030 00:41:59,570 --> 00:41:56,880 given off by different objects 1031 00:42:01,670 --> 00:41:59,580 vita-radiation yes beta radiation it's a 1032 00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:01,680 certain type of radiation and it can be 1033 00:42:05,660 --> 00:42:04,170 stopped by concrete and lead and will 1034 00:42:07,940 --> 00:42:05,670 pass through you but people will give 1035 00:42:09,710 --> 00:42:07,950 off certain amount of radiation based on 1036 00:42:11,570 --> 00:42:09,720 what they've been eating or what they've 1037 00:42:13,610 --> 00:42:11,580 been doing during the day it's all very 1038 00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:13,620 normal to be a little bit radioactive 1039 00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:15,450 that's interesting i can see these kids 1040 00:42:18,770 --> 00:42:16,530 are lined up now and they're all 1041 00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:18,780 pressing their hand against the the 1042 00:42:22,610 --> 00:42:20,850 sensor yes yeah measuring how 1043 00:42:26,090 --> 00:42:22,620 radioactive or what they are as we say 1044 00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:26,100 dancing oh well very surprised usually 1045 00:42:28,970 --> 00:42:27,330 to find that they are a little bit 1046 00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:28,980 radioactive will hop they are you say 1047 00:42:35,300 --> 00:42:31,330 yes yeah 1048 00:42:37,230 --> 00:42:35,310 is this lagan is how are you yeah 1049 00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:37,240 they're having a great oh what's this 1050 00:42:40,950 --> 00:42:38,530 now they're trying it over a cup of 1051 00:42:45,030 --> 00:42:40,960 something yes and this contains yeah can 1052 00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:47,130 I can hear the crackling isn't that it 1053 00:42:52,230 --> 00:42:49,090 does sound like just out of the movies 1054 00:42:54,030 --> 00:42:52,240 do yes it certainly does yes so that cup 1055 00:42:56,460 --> 00:42:54,040 contains uranium oxide and it gives it a 1056 00:42:58,810 --> 00:42:56,470 green color and those sorts of cups were 1057 00:43:01,480 --> 00:42:58,820 very popular in the 1920s 1058 00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:01,490 so this I'm holding it now this has got 1059 00:43:06,580 --> 00:43:03,970 the uranium in it yes uranium oxide 1060 00:43:10,210 --> 00:43:06,590 slightly radioactive under this cream 1061 00:43:13,210 --> 00:43:10,220 yes yes green and that was used because 1062 00:43:14,770 --> 00:43:13,220 it glows a little bit in the dark but 1063 00:43:16,300 --> 00:43:14,780 it's perfectly sure perfectly safe to 1064 00:43:18,910 --> 00:43:16,310 eat or drink out of people are usually 1065 00:43:21,460 --> 00:43:18,920 surprised by that but I wouldn't 1066 00:43:23,530 --> 00:43:21,470 recommend eating it just but eating out 1067 00:43:26,550 --> 00:43:23,540 of it is fine it's quite good quite 1068 00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:26,560 eerie with this green glow yes it does 1069 00:43:31,650 --> 00:43:29,530 well 1070 00:43:33,030 --> 00:43:31,660 that's fascinating and I was keep 1071 00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:33,040 mentioning the movies and I noticed 1072 00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:34,450 there are lots of movie posters around 1073 00:43:40,050 --> 00:43:37,330 and Darth Vader yes what's the idea of 1074 00:43:42,840 --> 00:43:40,060 alone you know the event today is really 1075 00:43:44,550 --> 00:43:42,850 looking at sci fi movies and whether the 1076 00:43:46,140 --> 00:43:44,560 things you see in sci fi movies can 1077 00:43:48,150 --> 00:43:46,150 actually be done in real life for now of 1078 00:43:50,460 --> 00:43:48,160 course fact or fiction and that's the 1079 00:43:52,740 --> 00:43:50,470 show that we're going to have a look at 1080 00:43:55,440 --> 00:43:52,750 momentarily the crowd are lined up 1081 00:43:57,390 --> 00:43:55,450 already very eager yes very excited I 1082 00:43:58,910 --> 00:43:57,400 will get to have their say and whether 1083 00:44:01,320 --> 00:43:58,920 they think these things are true or not 1084 00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:01,330 how interesting well thank you very much 1085 00:44:06,240 --> 00:44:03,490 for sparing some time what an 1086 00:44:10,050 --> 00:44:06,250 interesting job you have thank you 1087 00:44:11,640 --> 00:44:10,060 you're very welcome well it's really 1088 00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:11,650 interesting here lots of people are 1089 00:44:15,090 --> 00:44:13,090 hovering around waiting for the next 1090 00:44:18,930 --> 00:44:15,100 fact or fiction show to start but I've 1091 00:44:21,780 --> 00:44:18,940 grabbed a Hillary hello I'm fine now you 1092 00:44:23,070 --> 00:44:21,790 work for or with or at nstar that's 1093 00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:23,080 right i'm part of the graduate 1094 00:44:27,780 --> 00:44:25,450 development program and it's for two 1095 00:44:29,580 --> 00:44:27,790 years two years and you're based at 1096 00:44:33,030 --> 00:44:29,590 Lucas house based at Lucas Heights 1097 00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:33,040 sometimes I go on field trips and that 1098 00:44:38,430 --> 00:44:36,370 can go anywhere around the world so part 1099 00:44:40,530 --> 00:44:38,440 of your responsibilities is coming along 1100 00:44:42,570 --> 00:44:40,540 the public events like this yes that's 1101 00:44:44,520 --> 00:44:42,580 right to Pope Ramon esta to the public 1102 00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:44,530 when you're back to your normal life 1103 00:44:48,810 --> 00:44:46,810 working at the erector what is your 1104 00:44:51,270 --> 00:44:48,820 normal day-to-day activities there I 1105 00:44:52,740 --> 00:44:51,280 work in environmental research and i'm 1106 00:44:56,070 --> 00:44:52,750 looking at a low level nuclear waste 1107 00:44:59,190 --> 00:44:56,080 site and how contaminants move through 1108 00:45:00,540 --> 00:44:59,200 the environment in groundwater yes wow 1109 00:45:02,450 --> 00:45:00,550 that's a really interesting job so 1110 00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:02,460 you're there for a few years and then 1111 00:45:07,500 --> 00:45:05,290 what are your further aspirations what 1112 00:45:09,660 --> 00:45:07,510 do you hope to do later on I love 1113 00:45:11,530 --> 00:45:09,670 travelling so if i can go overseas and 1114 00:45:14,350 --> 00:45:11,540 do a 1115 00:45:16,180 --> 00:45:14,360 work over there perhaps in France or the 1116 00:45:18,610 --> 00:45:16,190 US where they have a lot more reactive 1117 00:45:21,430 --> 00:45:18,620 mobile nuclear waste then they'll be 1118 00:45:23,290 --> 00:45:21,440 there that's very true in fact there 1119 00:45:25,510 --> 00:45:23,300 could be lots of opportunities for 1120 00:45:27,850 --> 00:45:25,520 someone like you over there yes I'm 1121 00:45:29,650 --> 00:45:27,860 hoping so well I'm very pleased that 1122 00:45:31,330 --> 00:45:29,660 you're doing what you're doing and it 1123 00:45:33,850 --> 00:45:31,340 looks like you're having a great great 1124 00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:33,860 day here I'm talking to the public yes 1125 00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:35,450 thanks thanks for having me Thank You 1126 00:45:45,310 --> 00:45:42,410 Eve ladies and gentlemen boys and girls 1127 00:45:55,410 --> 00:45:45,320 please welcome your host for the day the 1128 00:45:55,420 --> 00:45:59,330 nice 1129 00:46:06,300 --> 00:46:03,780 thank you very much let's roll one if 1130 00:46:08,099 --> 00:46:06,310 you're a Time Lord lock your call box or 1131 00:46:11,640 --> 00:46:08,109 someone will break in and Nick your 1132 00:46:16,020 --> 00:46:11,650 scarf welcome everybody thank you for 1133 00:46:18,410 --> 00:46:16,030 coming rookie cyclones Balkans carbon 1134 00:46:22,380 --> 00:46:18,420 based lifeforms silicon-based life-forms 1135 00:46:26,700 --> 00:46:22,390 distinguished guest scientists kids are 1136 00:46:28,340 --> 00:46:26,710 here our mother down darling welcome in 1137 00:46:31,190 --> 00:46:28,350 fact or fiction here at the 1138 00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:31,200 architectural adequate university 1139 00:46:36,330 --> 00:46:34,930 technology and Sydney for fact or 1140 00:46:38,550 --> 00:46:36,340 fiction brought to you by and say my 1141 00:46:42,750 --> 00:46:38,560 name is Peter burner I will be your host 1142 00:46:44,880 --> 00:46:42,760 for this afternoon's proceedings because 1143 00:46:47,630 --> 00:46:44,890 and while we here we here very simply 1144 00:46:51,540 --> 00:46:47,640 because through the course of time the 1145 00:46:54,780 --> 00:46:51,550 lines between fact and fiction have 1146 00:46:56,609 --> 00:46:54,790 become somewhat were here's some 1147 00:47:01,190 --> 00:46:56,619 statistics will set the scene for you 1148 00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:01,200 this afternoon seventy-six percent of 1149 00:47:07,890 --> 00:47:05,170 respondents to our survey wrongly 1150 00:47:11,730 --> 00:47:07,900 believed microscopic life has been shown 1151 00:47:13,859 --> 00:47:11,740 to exist on other planets fifty-three 1152 00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:13,869 percent wrongly believed hoverboards 1153 00:47:19,880 --> 00:47:16,330 like the ones used while art even fly 1154 00:47:22,250 --> 00:47:19,890 back to the future actually exist 1155 00:47:24,720 --> 00:47:22,260 forty-three percent believe that the 1156 00:47:28,290 --> 00:47:24,730 resuscitation of a person from a frozen 1157 00:47:30,210 --> 00:47:28,300 state after a long space journey like 1158 00:47:31,830 --> 00:47:30,220 we've seen in virtually every single 1159 00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:31,840 science fiction moving on demand 1160 00:47:38,720 --> 00:47:36,010 actually exist so Hollywood studios are 1161 00:47:43,109 --> 00:47:38,730 guilty by a large along with you know 1162 00:47:45,720 --> 00:47:43,119 popular media of making the unbelievable 1163 00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:45,730 believable and the media as I said have 1164 00:47:49,170 --> 00:47:47,410 added to this confusion over the time 1165 00:47:52,890 --> 00:47:49,180 obviously i'm not talking about cosmos 1166 00:47:57,830 --> 00:47:52,900 magazine first boss magazines got out of 1167 00:48:01,780 --> 00:47:57,840 its way to be factually correct and in 1168 00:48:04,630 --> 00:48:01,790 2010 alone the popular media reported 1169 00:48:08,230 --> 00:48:04,640 they had been discovery of alien life 1170 00:48:11,920 --> 00:48:08,240 forms on asteroids that the same type of 1171 00:48:14,050 --> 00:48:11,930 asteroids started life on Earth as well 1172 00:48:18,610 --> 00:48:14,060 as life on Earth ending on the twenty 1173 00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:18,620 first of May of 2011 how many people 1174 00:48:24,550 --> 00:48:22,850 believe that just me come on how many 1175 00:48:28,750 --> 00:48:24,560 people blow out their credit cards that 1176 00:48:31,480 --> 00:48:28,760 you was just made it a little bit of 1177 00:48:32,620 --> 00:48:31,490 paying back to do there well tonight we 1178 00:48:34,990 --> 00:48:32,630 are going to cut through a lot of the 1179 00:48:38,350 --> 00:48:35,000 cosmic haze folks and determine once and 1180 00:48:41,740 --> 00:48:38,360 for all what is science fact and what is 1181 00:48:43,030 --> 00:48:41,750 science fiction but the question we're 1182 00:48:45,460 --> 00:48:43,040 talking about this afternoon is 1183 00:48:47,830 --> 00:48:45,470 invisibility yes we've asked the 1184 00:48:51,220 --> 00:48:47,840 question of our audience let's find out 1185 00:48:53,500 --> 00:48:51,230 what they think they say the majority 1186 00:48:58,540 --> 00:48:53,510 say that invisibility is more fiction 1187 00:49:04,120 --> 00:48:58,550 than fact how close are they well get 1188 00:49:05,770 --> 00:49:04,130 excited because it's actually a fact so 1189 00:49:08,710 --> 00:49:05,780 what oh so what what what are some of 1190 00:49:10,180 --> 00:49:08,720 the real real world applications of 1191 00:49:13,180 --> 00:49:10,190 reversibility where are we seeing well 1192 00:49:16,510 --> 00:49:13,190 as with a lot of fields and science the 1193 00:49:17,830 --> 00:49:16,520 US military is all over it the stealth 1194 00:49:19,960 --> 00:49:17,840 bomber is something you probably heard 1195 00:49:22,480 --> 00:49:19,970 of that's invisible on radar but that 1196 00:49:24,550 --> 00:49:22,490 technology is being expanded and used in 1197 00:49:26,890 --> 00:49:24,560 field devices such as tanks to try and 1198 00:49:29,940 --> 00:49:26,900 make them invisible to the eye what 1199 00:49:32,920 --> 00:49:29,950 about the clothes I was wearing ok well 1200 00:49:35,590 --> 00:49:32,930 it is let's start with the car James 1201 00:49:38,680 --> 00:49:35,600 Bond's pretty sweet car that technology 1202 00:49:40,270 --> 00:49:38,690 is actually in development scientists in 1203 00:49:41,740 --> 00:49:40,280 Japan have developed clothing which 1204 00:49:44,530 --> 00:49:41,750 would do a similar things so they use 1205 00:49:46,150 --> 00:49:44,540 cameras taking it images of what's going 1206 00:49:48,220 --> 00:49:46,160 on behind you and projected onto 1207 00:49:49,390 --> 00:49:48,230 clothing in the front of you so that 1208 00:49:51,220 --> 00:49:49,400 someone look at you from the front 1209 00:49:53,740 --> 00:49:51,230 actually not be able to see very well 1210 00:49:55,570 --> 00:49:53,750 now it's not quite as good as you saw in 1211 00:49:57,070 --> 00:49:55,580 the movie but it's getting there 1212 00:49:59,310 --> 00:49:57,080 something that is a lot cooler it's 1213 00:50:00,529 --> 00:49:59,320 metamaterials now they're man-made 1214 00:50:03,289 --> 00:50:00,539 materials 1215 00:50:05,599 --> 00:50:03,299 to have properties that you wouldn't 1216 00:50:08,630 --> 00:50:05,609 ordinarily find in nature and in terms 1217 00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:08,640 of invisibility the aim is to develop 1218 00:50:13,699 --> 00:50:10,890 meta materials that can actually divert 1219 00:50:15,679 --> 00:50:13,709 light waves now scientists have actually 1220 00:50:17,269 --> 00:50:15,689 managed to do this using microwaves 1221 00:50:19,130 --> 00:50:17,279 which is similar to like where you just 1222 00:50:20,929 --> 00:50:19,140 can't see them to get a bit of an 1223 00:50:23,089 --> 00:50:20,939 understanding of how this works imagine 1224 00:50:25,489 --> 00:50:23,099 a rock sitting in a creek now as the 1225 00:50:27,739 --> 00:50:25,499 water flows towards the rock it has to 1226 00:50:29,299 --> 00:50:27,749 split to divert around the rock and then 1227 00:50:30,739 --> 00:50:29,309 rejoins on the other side and if you 1228 00:50:32,569 --> 00:50:30,749 were to walk a little way downstream you 1229 00:50:33,829 --> 00:50:32,579 have no idea that the rock was even 1230 00:50:36,919 --> 00:50:33,839 there by looking at the surface of the 1231 00:50:40,219 --> 00:50:36,929 water now because might also travels in 1232 00:50:41,359 --> 00:50:40,229 waves we can apply the same concept now 1233 00:50:43,130 --> 00:50:41,369 as you're sitting there looking at me 1234 00:50:45,949 --> 00:50:43,140 paying attention they'll be an exam 1235 00:50:47,630 --> 00:50:45,959 later you're not actually seeing me 1236 00:50:50,809 --> 00:50:47,640 you're seeing the reflection of light 1237 00:50:53,419 --> 00:50:50,819 coming off me so really all you need to 1238 00:50:56,299 --> 00:50:53,429 do to make an invisibility cloak is have 1239 00:50:58,699 --> 00:50:56,309 a material that divert light around me 1240 00:51:01,239 --> 00:50:58,709 so nothing reflects off me and you have 1241 00:51:04,219 --> 00:51:01,249 no idea that I'm here now at this stage 1242 00:51:06,380 --> 00:51:04,229 they can do this with microwaves and 1243 00:51:07,969 --> 00:51:06,390 just in recent weeks and months 1244 00:51:10,849 --> 00:51:07,979 scientists have actually managed to 1245 00:51:12,859 --> 00:51:10,859 quote a microscopic object from the 1246 00:51:14,809 --> 00:51:12,869 visible spectrum rounding out the size 1247 00:51:17,169 --> 00:51:14,819 of blood cells so not quite at full 1248 00:51:19,069 --> 00:51:17,179 length invisibility cloak or stage yet 1249 00:51:21,140 --> 00:51:19,079 but hopefully in the not too distant 1250 00:51:23,299 --> 00:51:21,150 future I'll be able to expect that 1251 00:51:26,299 --> 00:51:23,309 technology to have an invisible cloak or 1252 00:51:28,159 --> 00:51:26,309 an invisible car oh there's no end of it 1253 00:51:29,959 --> 00:51:28,169 it's in because our shorts and notebooks 1254 00:51:35,500 --> 00:51:29,969 and everything the whole bit thank you 1255 00:51:40,370 --> 00:51:38,450 the audience now as you can hear by that 1256 00:51:42,950 --> 00:51:40,380 ladies and gentlemen invisibility what a 1257 00:51:46,130 --> 00:51:42,960 wonderful concept I wish we could do it 1258 00:51:48,430 --> 00:51:46,140 today and I've just found bunny how who 1259 00:51:52,520 --> 00:51:48,440 is just talking about that hi body hi 1260 00:51:56,030 --> 00:51:52,530 now you work at ANSTO of course what is 1261 00:51:58,070 --> 00:51:56,040 your exact role there I'm part of a 1262 00:52:00,380 --> 00:51:58,080 graduate program which started in 1263 00:52:03,620 --> 00:52:00,390 February of this year so it's a two-year 1264 00:52:05,420 --> 00:52:03,630 program just having a bit of a look 1265 00:52:06,740 --> 00:52:05,430 around all the departments at ANSTO so 1266 00:52:08,480 --> 00:52:06,750 I'm currently working in the life 1267 00:52:10,330 --> 00:52:08,490 sciences department which is research 1268 00:52:13,160 --> 00:52:10,340 and development of radio pharmaceuticals 1269 00:52:15,140 --> 00:52:13,170 and i'm doing a four-month rotation in 1270 00:52:16,910 --> 00:52:15,150 our materials sector in a couple of 1271 00:52:18,710 --> 00:52:16,920 months and then finishing off the 1272 00:52:20,630 --> 00:52:18,720 graduate program back in life sciences 1273 00:52:24,260 --> 00:52:20,640 so it's just a learning curve really and 1274 00:52:25,760 --> 00:52:24,270 i bet it is I found your your segment of 1275 00:52:27,560 --> 00:52:25,770 the show which of the fantastic show 1276 00:52:29,120 --> 00:52:27,570 you've just seen the fact or fiction 1277 00:52:30,590 --> 00:52:29,130 where they have lots of movie clips from 1278 00:52:32,540 --> 00:52:30,600 science fiction movies and then 1279 00:52:35,300 --> 00:52:32,550 scientists that come up and talk about 1280 00:52:37,970 --> 00:52:35,310 each one and your topic was invisibility 1281 00:52:39,500 --> 00:52:37,980 and I thought you you sort of got your 1282 00:52:42,770 --> 00:52:39,510 head around that because you're talking 1283 00:52:46,250 --> 00:52:42,780 about the way that the great analogy you 1284 00:52:51,200 --> 00:52:46,260 had was a rock in a stream now the water 1285 00:52:53,870 --> 00:52:51,210 can move around the rock yeah I it is a 1286 00:52:56,360 --> 00:52:53,880 bit of a difficult concept to get your 1287 00:52:57,770 --> 00:52:56,370 head around so I find that being able to 1288 00:52:59,990 --> 00:52:57,780 relate it to something that people have 1289 00:53:02,120 --> 00:53:00,000 seen and can actually imagine in their 1290 00:53:04,010 --> 00:53:02,130 heads in real life yeah kind of makes 1291 00:53:06,020 --> 00:53:04,020 the whole thing make a little bit more 1292 00:53:07,880 --> 00:53:06,030 sense rather than big words like 1293 00:53:10,520 --> 00:53:07,890 metamaterials and you know things that I 1294 00:53:15,140 --> 00:53:10,530 had to look up on Wikipedia so it seems 1295 00:53:17,030 --> 00:53:15,150 to be a lot of that going around and do 1296 00:53:19,070 --> 00:53:17,040 you take part in much of the outreach in 1297 00:53:21,680 --> 00:53:19,080 oh and still do because I bumped in to 1298 00:53:23,390 --> 00:53:21,690 you the other day at the Australian 1299 00:53:26,030 --> 00:53:23,400 Museum where you were there doing some 1300 00:53:27,590 --> 00:53:26,040 outreach to I noticed yeah I think it's 1301 00:53:30,440 --> 00:53:27,600 because i'm doing the graduate program 1302 00:53:31,820 --> 00:53:30,450 so I'm not all that different in age to 1303 00:53:33,710 --> 00:53:31,830 the kids coming out of schools because 1304 00:53:36,170 --> 00:53:33,720 I've just finished studying so I think 1305 00:53:37,580 --> 00:53:36,180 it's a little bit less intimidating for 1306 00:53:39,920 --> 00:53:37,590 kids ok they can come and talk to 1307 00:53:41,990 --> 00:53:39,930 someone who's in the generation i 1308 00:53:43,640 --> 00:53:42,000 suppose i'll release years yeah someone 1309 00:53:45,020 --> 00:53:43,650 they can relate to and someone who's 1310 00:53:45,329 --> 00:53:45,030 just gone through that big learning 1311 00:53:46,829 --> 00:53:45,339 curve 1312 00:53:48,569 --> 00:53:46,839 can still relate it back to the time 1313 00:53:50,700 --> 00:53:48,579 when they didn't quite understand what 1314 00:53:52,499 --> 00:53:50,710 was going on either so you would have 1315 00:53:55,049 --> 00:53:52,509 been in high school not that many years 1316 00:53:57,569 --> 00:53:55,059 ago image that many is getting out of it 1317 00:54:00,450 --> 00:53:57,579 now but now I can still remember oh we 1318 00:54:02,519 --> 00:54:00,460 can all remember those days and your 1319 00:54:04,289 --> 00:54:02,529 day-to-day activities when you go down 1320 00:54:07,109 --> 00:54:04,299 in you you clock in and you're going to 1321 00:54:08,940 --> 00:54:07,119 work they I guess there could be many 1322 00:54:11,039 --> 00:54:08,950 different things you'd be doing through 1323 00:54:12,989 --> 00:54:11,049 the course of your time there yeah 1324 00:54:15,509 --> 00:54:12,999 that's sort of what I like about my job 1325 00:54:17,450 --> 00:54:15,519 at the moment it's really limited by my 1326 00:54:20,309 --> 00:54:17,460 imagination a lot of the time so 1327 00:54:21,930 --> 00:54:20,319 scientists come to me with problems and 1328 00:54:25,019 --> 00:54:21,940 because I'm the engineer I'm sort of 1329 00:54:28,019 --> 00:54:25,029 expected to be able to use technology to 1330 00:54:30,239 --> 00:54:28,029 solve them so implementing hardware and 1331 00:54:32,279 --> 00:54:30,249 software making machines to be able to 1332 00:54:35,160 --> 00:54:32,289 solve a problem that scientists might 1333 00:54:37,170 --> 00:54:35,170 have so at the moment that's building 1334 00:54:39,299 --> 00:54:37,180 devices to try and separate scientists 1335 00:54:42,930 --> 00:54:39,309 from the radiation to stop the negative 1336 00:54:44,969 --> 00:54:42,940 effects shields seriously it is it's a 1337 00:54:46,799 --> 00:54:44,979 it's coming back to Star Trek already 1338 00:54:49,170 --> 00:54:46,809 and all the science fiction movies we've 1339 00:54:51,569 --> 00:54:49,180 just seen you're the sort of woman who 1340 00:54:54,479 --> 00:54:51,579 in the future will say ah this is called 1341 00:54:57,450 --> 00:54:54,489 the house shield named after Bonnie how 1342 00:55:00,509 --> 00:54:57,460 who invented the the great she'll dig 1343 00:55:02,009 --> 00:55:00,519 starships that's right Bonnie I'm so 1344 00:55:03,420 --> 00:55:02,019 pleased that you're involved in this 1345 00:55:05,309 --> 00:55:03,430 sort of work and I'm delighted to see 1346 00:55:07,620 --> 00:55:05,319 that people like you are out there we're 1347 00:55:09,630 --> 00:55:07,630 doing the outreach and reaching the 1348 00:55:14,279 --> 00:55:09,640 general public so they can find out more 1349 00:55:15,900 --> 00:55:14,289 thank you thank you very much and to 1350 00:55:18,390 --> 00:55:15,910 wrap up the series of interviews we've 1351 00:55:21,180 --> 00:55:18,400 done here at the fact or fiction and I 1352 00:55:23,370 --> 00:55:21,190 must tell you that during the course of 1353 00:55:25,410 --> 00:55:23,380 the the presentation were all pressing 1354 00:55:26,999 --> 00:55:25,420 these little buttons as when the answers 1355 00:55:29,279 --> 00:55:27,009 came up and if what we thought the right 1356 00:55:31,349 --> 00:55:29,289 answer wasn't at the end I was very 1357 00:55:33,690 --> 00:55:31,359 surprised to see my number come up as 1358 00:55:35,099 --> 00:55:33,700 the senior scientist and I'm quite 1359 00:55:37,259 --> 00:55:35,109 pleased now to be talking to rod dollar 1360 00:55:39,450 --> 00:55:37,269 who's who looks to me to be tired but 1361 00:55:41,670 --> 00:55:39,460 excited I think you know definitely our 1362 00:55:44,640 --> 00:55:41,680 man we've just had a wonderful day of 1363 00:55:46,979 --> 00:55:44,650 fact or fiction now we've had lots of 1364 00:55:49,349 --> 00:55:46,989 people here lots of kids since I think 1365 00:55:51,690 --> 00:55:49,359 that so we've thoroughly entertained 1366 00:55:54,710 --> 00:55:51,700 them I was shown that you know science 1367 00:55:57,140 --> 00:55:54,720 can be a very entertaining experience 1368 00:56:00,260 --> 00:55:57,150 so by I guess combining elements of 1369 00:56:01,880 --> 00:56:00,270 Hollywood with your pure science that 1370 00:56:04,790 --> 00:56:01,890 people can see wow this is really 1371 00:56:06,740 --> 00:56:04,800 interesting stuff and whose idea was 1372 00:56:08,510 --> 00:56:06,750 this whole approach to use these 1373 00:56:11,599 --> 00:56:08,520 Hollywood clips from science fiction oh 1374 00:56:13,130 --> 00:56:11,609 I guess Richard for my sins I have a 1375 00:56:15,470 --> 00:56:13,140 marketing background and I started 1376 00:56:17,810 --> 00:56:15,480 against a 12 months ago and so the first 1377 00:56:20,089 --> 00:56:17,820 things I noticed was that answer wasn't 1378 00:56:22,250 --> 00:56:20,099 participating in National Science Week 1379 00:56:25,609 --> 00:56:22,260 like a scientific organisation of the 1380 00:56:27,890 --> 00:56:25,619 size should yeah so I applied for some 1381 00:56:29,839 --> 00:56:27,900 funding and was successful and one thing 1382 00:56:30,830 --> 00:56:29,849 led to the other I guess once once you 1383 00:56:35,120 --> 00:56:30,840 get the money you've got to come up with 1384 00:56:38,330 --> 00:56:35,130 a concept so you know I very much my 1385 00:56:40,640 --> 00:56:38,340 idea and I think that one of my 1386 00:56:43,099 --> 00:56:40,650 observations about science in my very 1387 00:56:45,320 --> 00:56:43,109 short time in the industry is that we 1388 00:56:47,690 --> 00:56:45,330 can certainly communicate our science 1389 00:56:49,430 --> 00:56:47,700 matters better than what we currently do 1390 00:56:51,230 --> 00:56:49,440 well it wasn't a loaded question I'd 1391 00:56:52,730 --> 00:56:51,240 actually didn't know that you came up 1392 00:56:55,280 --> 00:56:52,740 with this but I was about to say to you 1393 00:56:57,620 --> 00:56:55,290 I thought it was a very good wait for 1394 00:56:59,089 --> 00:56:57,630 outreach hmm and I think judging by the 1395 00:57:01,700 --> 00:56:59,099 size of the audience there and the 1396 00:57:03,530 --> 00:57:01,710 number of kids and the fun everybody had 1397 00:57:05,660 --> 00:57:03,540 I thought I thought you were right on 1398 00:57:07,790 --> 00:57:05,670 the money yeah I guess you know we've 1399 00:57:10,760 --> 00:57:07,800 got all the elements so with this show 1400 00:57:13,160 --> 00:57:10,770 we are entertaining we are funny so 1401 00:57:15,140 --> 00:57:13,170 having a host like Peter Byrne of the 1402 00:57:16,760 --> 00:57:15,150 comedian yet make sure that there's 1403 00:57:19,400 --> 00:57:16,770 plenty of laughs within the show and 1404 00:57:22,040 --> 00:57:19,410 there's a very strong interactive 1405 00:57:25,579 --> 00:57:22,050 element as well too so pressing your 1406 00:57:27,230 --> 00:57:25,589 keypad hello controllers voting on 1407 00:57:29,120 --> 00:57:27,240 whether other technology you've just 1408 00:57:31,849 --> 00:57:29,130 watched in the film whether that's fact 1409 00:57:35,540 --> 00:57:31,859 or fictional degrees of fact or fiction 1410 00:57:38,150 --> 00:57:35,550 um no was challenging for people and so 1411 00:57:39,470 --> 00:57:38,160 I think that when you you could tell 1412 00:57:41,030 --> 00:57:39,480 when the audience was getting it right 1413 00:57:42,829 --> 00:57:41,040 there was cheese going up so then 1414 00:57:44,630 --> 00:57:42,839 dividing people in the teams and all the 1415 00:57:46,010 --> 00:57:44,640 rest of it say yeah generally speaking I 1416 00:57:47,810 --> 00:57:46,020 think the whole concept worked very well 1417 00:57:50,240 --> 00:57:47,820 it's great to see lots of people lining 1418 00:57:53,150 --> 00:57:50,250 up as they were earlier just to have a 1419 00:57:54,960 --> 00:57:53,160 look at the Geiger counter and the the 1420 00:57:57,570 --> 00:57:54,970 little Bowl which had rain 1421 00:57:59,610 --> 00:57:57,580 yeah like s that's part of our day to 1422 00:58:01,980 --> 00:57:59,620 day you have fact or fiction a dance so 1423 00:58:04,590 --> 00:58:01,990 that's it's an organization that has a 1424 00:58:07,740 --> 00:58:04,600 lot of misperceptions and so fact that 1425 00:58:09,480 --> 00:58:07,750 radioactivity is always harmful and 1426 00:58:12,330 --> 00:58:09,490 dangerous i mean we want to improve that 1427 00:58:15,420 --> 00:58:12,340 is fiction that we use radio activities 1428 00:58:18,900 --> 00:58:15,430 for research and for nuclear medicines 1429 00:58:21,570 --> 00:58:18,910 and some for study of the environment 1430 00:58:24,150 --> 00:58:21,580 and several other purposes some and so 1431 00:58:26,370 --> 00:58:24,160 it's small amounts of radioactivity that 1432 00:58:28,620 --> 00:58:26,380 we're producing as well too so lots of 1433 00:58:30,330 --> 00:58:28,630 benefits we can't escape them well well 1434 00:58:33,300 --> 00:58:30,340 as part of their everyday I mean it's 1435 00:58:35,550 --> 00:58:33,310 it's part of the natural world but most 1436 00:58:37,230 --> 00:58:35,560 people like believe it or not fact or 1437 00:58:40,770 --> 00:58:37,240 fiction they think that's are you though 1438 00:58:43,140 --> 00:58:40,780 that when you say radiation is lower a 1439 00:58:45,870 --> 00:58:43,150 dance so within our reactor than what it 1440 00:58:48,510 --> 00:58:45,880 is if you're standing outside receiving 1441 00:58:50,520 --> 00:58:48,520 a nice tan from the Sun when you tell 1442 00:58:51,870 --> 00:58:50,530 them that that's a fax you know some 1443 00:58:54,210 --> 00:58:51,880 people still think that that's fiction 1444 00:58:55,560 --> 00:58:54,220 I'm sure they do now if our listeners 1445 00:58:57,120 --> 00:58:55,570 want to find out more about the work 1446 00:58:58,980 --> 00:58:57,130 that you're undertaking there and am 1447 00:59:00,510 --> 00:58:58,990 still in general when they what the 1448 00:59:02,820 --> 00:59:00,520 website can they all go along to the 1449 00:59:07,770 --> 00:59:02,830 answer website which is world wide web 1450 00:59:10,470 --> 00:59:07,780 bot and so a in STO gov au and so we do 1451 00:59:13,320 --> 00:59:10,480 community to us they're available like 1452 00:59:16,110 --> 00:59:13,330 every second Saturday or you can bring a 1453 00:59:19,410 --> 00:59:16,120 group along as well too and come during 1454 00:59:21,930 --> 00:59:19,420 the week we also do I quite an extensive 1455 00:59:23,640 --> 00:59:21,940 school holiday program as well too so we 1456 00:59:25,980 --> 00:59:23,650 do to as morning and afternoon every day 1457 00:59:28,110 --> 00:59:25,990 during the school holidays and some it's 1458 00:59:30,180 --> 00:59:28,120 an eye-opening experience it's a large 1459 00:59:34,680 --> 00:59:30,190 organization there's a lot of research 1460 00:59:36,810 --> 00:59:34,690 and again we try to make our tour as 1461 00:59:38,730 --> 00:59:36,820 entertaining as possible and so bring it 1462 00:59:40,680 --> 00:59:38,740 down to a level that people can 1463 00:59:42,660 --> 00:59:40,690 understand it sounds like the sort of 1464 00:59:44,580 --> 00:59:42,670 thing I should get myself down there to 1465 00:59:47,370 --> 00:59:44,590 leukocytes check it out which I will be 1466 00:59:49,410 --> 00:59:47,380 doing at sooner rather than later well 1467 01:00:04,470 --> 00:59:49,420 rock thank you very much for emotion 1468 01:00:07,620 --> 01:00:04,480 nature thank you Richard scopes monkey 1469 01:00:10,079 --> 01:00:07,630 blair scopes monkey choir wait are we 1470 01:00:12,720 --> 01:00:10,089 acquire know when I require but we are 1471 01:00:17,010 --> 01:00:12,730 musicians when I monkeys either we are 1472 01:00:20,160 --> 01:00:17,020 primates so what is scopes monkey choir 1473 01:00:23,039 --> 01:00:20,170 it's podcast oh yeah it's podcast it's 1474 01:00:25,049 --> 01:00:23,049 the podcast where music and sound meets 1475 01:00:27,120 --> 01:00:25,059 science and skepticism we are two 1476 01:00:28,890 --> 01:00:27,130 professional musicians who decided turn 1477 01:00:30,870 --> 01:00:28,900 are skeptical eyes on our own profession 1478 01:00:33,420 --> 01:00:30,880 we look at the science of music we look 1479 01:00:35,880 --> 01:00:33,430 at studies recent studies about music 1480 01:00:40,950 --> 01:00:35,890 and sound we look skeptically at musical 1481 01:00:42,690 --> 01:00:40,960 myths we look at and we work out of our 1482 01:00:45,809 --> 01:00:42,700 music listen to us at Scopes Monkey 1483 01:00:47,819 --> 01:00:45,819 choir calm I'll find us on iTunes Scopes 1484 01:01:02,599 --> 01:00:47,829 Monkey choir the podcast for music and 1485 01:01:07,160 --> 01:01:04,759 thank you for listening to the skeptic 1486 01:01:08,779 --> 01:01:07,170 zone and while you're being listening to 1487 01:01:11,210 --> 01:01:08,789 the skeptics earning I've been working 1488 01:01:14,569 --> 01:01:11,220 on it at the same time go figure that 1489 01:01:17,059 --> 01:01:14,579 one out my farrier has arrived at Manly 1490 01:01:19,729 --> 01:01:17,069 Beach beautiful manly beach and I'm 1491 01:01:21,440 --> 01:01:19,739 walking on the sand right now heading 1492 01:01:23,900 --> 01:01:21,450 down towards the water not too many 1493 01:01:27,339 --> 01:01:23,910 swimmers still wind here in Australia 1494 01:01:31,099 --> 01:01:27,349 but lots of surfboard riders out there 1495 01:01:33,430 --> 01:01:31,109 as I look out on the beautiful South 1496 01:01:44,970 --> 01:01:33,440 Pacific 1497 01:01:52,680 --> 01:01:48,900 coming up on next week's show that's a 1498 01:01:57,480 --> 01:01:52,690 good question hmm probably probably more 1499 01:02:00,210 --> 01:01:57,490 from Tam in Las Vegas baby probably 1500 01:02:03,540 --> 01:02:00,220 something else and we'll have even 1501 01:02:05,700 --> 01:02:03,550 something else other than that I suspect 1502 01:02:07,800 --> 01:02:05,710 something to do with me not something to 1503 01:02:11,500 --> 01:02:07,810 a doctor AG something to do with their 1504 01:02:17,470 --> 01:02:11,510 answer give where you have the story 1505 01:02:20,650 --> 01:02:17,480 so from a sandy beautiful manly beach 1506 01:02:23,290 --> 01:02:20,660 full of seagulls and we'll gathered 1507 01:02:25,780 --> 01:02:23,300 around this is Richard Saunders signing 1508 01:02:35,069 --> 01:02:25,790 up from manly beach here in Sydney 1509 01:02:42,489 --> 01:02:37,479 you've been listening to the skeptic 1510 01:02:46,239 --> 01:02:42,499 zone visit our website at www skeptics